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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Dec, 2004 08:55 pm
ican711nm wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Interestingly, as I understand it, Franks was opposed - as was most of the military - to Rumsfeld's belief that Iraq would be quick and easy - and require very few troops. The military wanted a large commitment - if the damn thing was done at all - believing that there would be a great deal of difficulty in maintaining order and fighting insurgents.
That's probably true for many in the military, but according to GTF, this strategy of a small, fast force to remove Saddam's regime was in fact Franks's idea. He claimed it took quite an effort to convince those he had to convince to go with his plan. However making the peace was a wholly different problem which he discusses at length. He does not propose a large increase in military for that purpose. He thinks that would convince Iraqis we were not there to liberate, but conquer. Too many Iraqis (and home folks as well) think that now.

I wish I had his entire book on file so I could copy excerpts and post them here. There are four paragraphs on page 420 of Franks' book that reveal Franks' thinking on how to accomplish what was called Phase IV (Reconstruction, or "the day after") of their plan. All that I have so far posted from GTF was transcribed by me (i'm a slow typist). I got my copy from Amazon. However, I'll type these particular paragraphs as soon as I can.


Ah - interesting - the doco I saw had it as some other fella - damned if I can remember his name - and Franks sort of becoming the centre of decisions - the meat in the sammich, as i were....I note you HAVE transcribed - so I will read your later post later.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 03:15 am
So ican,
as evidence that I requested for your statements:
Quote:
It was the 2001s that the Kurds chose not to attack.
It was the 2001s that Saddam could have responded to the US demands and easily removed these al Qaeda by asking the Kurds to attack and defeat them too.
Or, Saddam could have attacked and removed the 2001s with his own forces.

you post a link to your reiterations of the above statements:
Quote:
The intolerance that the Kurd's expressed and acted on toward the predecessors of AaI obviously did not materialize when AaI was established.
It had to be Saddam who willingly and knowingly and tolerantly harbored al Qaeda in Iraq. Otherwise, the Kurd's would probably have again at least attempted to destroy AaI, the al Qaeda successors of their al Qaeda enemies.
Alternatively, if Saddam did not tolerate AaI there and didn't want to bother to order his troops to remove AaI, he could have simply requested the Kurd's, the proven enemies of AaI's al Qaeda predecessors, to destroy AaI.


Your reasoning here is circular.

Then, you explain that you have no evidence for your speculations. Explanation taken.

So, your speculations upon what the 9/11 commission has written are disreputable as evidence of Saddam's harboring of "al Qaeda" in northern Iraq.



About the invalidity of your sources, ican, specifically, it is Powell's UN speech that has been thoroughly discredited as evidence of Saddam's WMD, and has therefore been shown to be a questionable source of information as concerns claims of Saddam's harboring of al-Qaeda. As far as his claims concerning Saddam's harboring of "al-Qaeda"/Ansar al-Islam/al-Zarqawi, the other source of potentially corroborating evidence, the 9/11 Commisson Report, doesn't even mention al-Zarqawi. The reports it itself perused to arrive at its own speculations are self-describedly "puzzling," "third-hand;" one is even titled Special Analysis: Iraq's Inconclusive Ties to Al-Qaida," July 31, 2002 (notice the date in which it was written, almost a year after its description of the creation of Ansar al-Islam). The commission itself states that it had "seen no evidence that these [meetings that "MAY have occurred in 1999"] or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship." As far as YOUR speculations that the 9/11 Commission reports a "harboring relationship"--something that is other than a "collaborative operational relationship," according only to YOU--between Saddam and "al Qaeda," the commission's statements amount to the words "apparently," "indications," and the phrase "tolerated and may even have helped ANSAR AL ISLAM." Specifically, the 9/11 Commission Report has shown ITSELF to be poor evidence of claims of Saddam's harboring of al-Qaeda.

I have not come across anything that has unsubstantiated the evidence I've referred to, or discredited the sources thereof.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 04:27 am
but, but, but... it's because...

we, all of us, know why. some address it. some make excuses...
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 04:55 am
How many pages would we get if there was a western nation being attacked by another country? It would be lucky to get 5. No interest, not trendy enough and no bono concert. Lets stick to what we know best, kicing USA whenever we can.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 04:57 am
I'm glad someone has the patience, and the skill, to unpick Ican's tangles. Thank you, InfraBlue.

The right-wingers have been uncharacteristically subdued of late. Maybe some of the truth of the enormity of the crime, without even a good outcome in sight yet, has begun to sink in.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:11 am
For the record, I see no crime whatsoever other than very minor incidents of military misconduct--minor when compared to the whole I mean--and the enormity of the hideous crimes of the Saddam regime and the terrorists. I don't think Infrablue, while making a valiant effort to do so, has managed to legitimately punch a single hole in Ican's take on it all.
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:26 am
Watch what you say Fox. Anyone who doesn't completely agree with theories brought forward by people from the left will be deemed to be a nazi and possibly suspended from a2k.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:33 am
australia wrote:
How many pages would we get if there was a western nation being attacked by another country? It would be lucky to get 5. No interest, not trendy enough and no bono concert. Lets stick to what we know best, kicing USA whenever we can.


you really need to get a grip. america, a western nation btw, was attacked. by a group based out of, and supported by the government of, afghanistan.

and initially that is the country which recieved the retribution. a job left unfinished. don't think so ? opium production is higher than when the dope pimping taliban ran the store. and by the way, they ain't dead an' gone, pard...

"rather fight them there than here"... what was wrong with fighting them in afghanistan ? "foriegn terrorists streaming in !"

like they wouldn't have streamed into afghanistan... "rather fight them there than here"...

kick america first ? bullshit. kick osama first. pursue the neocon agenda later, if at all.

climb down off the cross, will ya.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:37 am
Don't forget, DTOM, even though the neos are now in charge, any criticism of their ideas or methods turns them into victims.

Joe (having a blue Christmas) Nation
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:38 am
You can't attack terrorists. That was what was ingenious about the bombing. Who do you attack back? If it was a country, then attack them, but it wasn't, it was groups here and there, cells here, sleepers there. You are fighting an invisible enemy who think nothing of giving their life away.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:56 am
australia wrote:
Anyone who doesn't completely agree with theories brought forward by people from the left will be deemed to be a nazi ...


wow!! i always wondered what was stamped on the other side of the coin that was impressed with " if you don't love george bush and his actions you are a traitorous enemy lover".

life ain't that simple dude...
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:57 am
how is your day going tread?
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:02 am
australia wrote:
You can't attack terrorists. That was what was ingenious about the bombing. Who do you attack back? If it was a country, then attack them, but it wasn't, it was groups here and there, cells here, sleepers there. You are fighting an invisible enemy who think nothing of giving their life away.


then why the g.d. hell are so intent on backing the war in iraq. you are saying the exact same thing i have been saying for 3 bloody years !

jesus! al qaida is a "shadow army".

one more time... we are fighting spies and and sabateurs. we have to fight them with the same... and guard the freaking borders.

dammit. this soooo frustrating.
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:04 am
i am not backing the war in iraq. never have. you must have got me confused with someone else.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:09 am
australia wrote:
how is your day going tread?


uhhh, it's just ending...

had a dinner party last night. wife went to bed. took the dog with her. the cat's shagged out and crashed in my chair. Laughing

all i have left is my mac and you aussiedude. thanks for asking :wink:

how 'bout you?

by the way, don't be too offended by anything i toss at you. my dad was a sailor, i tend to speak up in direct terms. even when i'm trying to be sensitive. as in the above post... Rolling Eyes

happy holidays, man. and good on ya'.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:10 am
australia wrote:
How many pages would we get if there was a western nation being attacked by another country? It would be lucky to get 5. No interest, not trendy enough and no bono concert. Lets stick to what we know best, kicing USA whenever we can.


Silly comment. Most here, including me, support the USA and hope to bring realisation of the damage this administration is doing to the USA and its ideals.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:14 am
McTag wrote:
australia wrote:
How many pages would we get if there was a western nation being attacked by another country? It would be lucky to get 5. No interest, not trendy enough and no bono concert. Lets stick to what we know best, kicing USA whenever we can.


Silly comment. Most here, including me, support the USA and hope to bring realisation of the damage this administration is doing to the USA and its ideals.


there ya go baby! now we're groking !

how goes it in albion this fine winter's day ?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:25 am
Albion- wet, cold, perfidious as usual. Luckily I'm Scottish, and more honest. Smile

okay picky people, you want an antonym- trustworthy. Smile
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:28 am
It seems that all this blind republican support is mostly on this board. Now that the election is over and folks don't have to choose between kerry and bush, more people on the conservative are speaking out.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041220/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rumsfeld


Quote:
Sen. Richard Lugar (news, bio, voting record), R-Ind., chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, added, "We really can't go through that ordeal" now of finding a successor. Rumsfeld "should be held accountable, and he should stay in office," Lugar said.


But Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record), R-Neb., said he had no confidence in Rumsfeld, although he stopped short of calling on the secretary to step down. "I find it astounding. ... Things are worse than they've ever been" in Iraq, Hagel said on CBS' "Face the Nation." He said it was up to President Bush (news - web sites) whether to replace Rumsfeld.

More than 1,300 American troops have died since the war began in March 2003. Meanwhile, soldiers have complained about long deployments and a lack of armored vehicles and other equipment.


Rumsfeld's since-abandoned use of a mechanical device to sign letters of condolence had added to the criticism by Hagel, a Vietnam veteran, and others.


Rumsfeld, who agreed to Bush's request this month to stay in the Cabinet during the president's second term, won a vote of confidence from the White House on Sunday.


"Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a spectacular job," White House chief of staff Andrew Card told ABC's "This Week."


"The president has provided good direction for our military, and Secretary Rumsfeld is transforming our military to meet the threats of the 21st century," Card said.


Critics have raised questions again about whether enough U.S. troops are in Iraq to bring security. Iraq's interim president, Ghazi al-Yawar, said last week the U.S.-led coalition made a mistake by dismantling Iraqi security forces after last year's invasion.


Iraqi leaders have also said that former army officers and police officers with clean records should be reinstated to help organize the Iraqi military.


On Sunday, Sen. Carl Levin (news, bio, voting record), ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, said he supported that idea, and the United States also must reach out to Arab countries to help persuade Iraq's Muslims of the Sunni sect to participate in the election despite the increased violence.


The administration's biggest mistake in Iraq was the rapid disbanding of military forces after Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime was toppled "and not trying to maintain some of it in place to have continuity and to rapidly put together a security force," Warner said.


Rumsfeld's performance has also come under criticism from Republican Sens. Trent Lott of Mississippi and John McCain of Arizona, among others, as well as Democrats.


Lott said last week that Rumsfeld did not listen to uniformed officers and that Bush should make a change at the Pentagon in the next year or so.


Warner said Sunday that Bush should stay the course, especially with the Iraqi vote next month.


"We are going to have a tough period after that election, and we should press our confidence in the commander in chief and his principal subordinates," he said
.

It seems to me that most are saying that while bush and his pals flubbed up we got to stay the course because Iraq can't take any upheavals in changing leadership because things are such a mess. A stupid opinion in my opinion. Also I don't like Lottt in the first place and place little in anything he says. However, the fact that conservative republicans are critical of Bush and company over Iraq says that it is not just a partisan or "trendy" thing.
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 07:42 am
pretty good tread, past midnight here so off to bed.

Have a good day!
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