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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:57 pm
I have no doubt that there was an investigation before the Abu Ghraib abuses became public; but who was running the investigation? Organizations have a notorious history of rigging self-investigations to protect the people at the top.

Not to mention that the order could come down the pipe that implicating Rummy would 'undermine national security,' and we can't do that, so we won't. The ends always seem to justify the means for this admin.

It's not an anti-american mindset; it's anti-this administration, which has already shown themselves to be liars and manipulators. I don't trust em anymore. So, I'm not trying to be negative, but I just don't believe a f*cking thing they say anymore.

Fool me twice, shame on me, as my mother used to say....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:04 pm
Here's a shot of downtown Fallujah. What do you think McTag?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/gallery/albums/040309falluja/9_G.jpg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's not an anti-american mindset; it's anti-this administration, which has already shown themselves to be liars and manipulators.
How did this administration show "themselves to be liars and manipulators?"

Do you think the following a lie and a manipulation?

www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
2 THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM
2.1 A DECLARATION OF WAR
In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin and a fugitive Egyptian physician, Ayman al Zawahiri, arranged from their Afghan headquarters for an Arabic newspaper in London to publish what they termed a fatwa issued in the name of a "World Islamic Front." A fatwa is normally an interpretation of Islamic law by a respected Islamic authority, but neither Bin Ladin, Zawahiri, nor the three others who signed this statement were scholars of Islamic law. Claiming that America had declared war against God and his messenger, they called for the murder of any American, anywhere on earth, as the "individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."1

Three months later, when interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV, Bin Ladin enlarged on these themes.2 He claimed it was more important for Muslims to kill Americans than to kill other infidels. "It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities," he said. Asked whether he approved of terrorism and of attacks on civilians, he replied: "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets."

Though novel for its open endorsement of indiscriminate killing, Bin Ladin's 1998 declaration was only the latest in the long series of his public and private calls since 1992 that singled out the United States for attack.
In August 1996, Bin Ladin had issued his own self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia. The long, disjointed document condemned the Saudi monarchy for allowing the presence of an army of infidels in a land with the sites most sacred to Islam, and celebrated recent suicide bombings of American military facilities in the Kingdom. It praised the 1983 suicide bombing in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines, the 1992 bombing in Aden, and especially the 1993 firefight in Somalia after which the United States "left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you."3

Bin Ladin said in his ABC interview that he and his followers had been preparing in Somalia for another long struggle, like that against the Soviets in Afghanistan, but "the United States rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace." Citing the Soviet army's withdrawal from Afghanistan as proof that a ragged army of dedicated Muslims could overcome a superpower, he told the interviewer: "We are certain that we shall-with the grace of Allah-prevail over the Americans." He went on to warn that "If the present injustice continues . . . , it will inevitably move the battle to American soil."4

Plans to attack the United States were developed with unwavering single-mindedness throughout the 1990s. Bin Ladin saw himself as called "to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations,"5 and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam.


I bet my life and the lives of those I love that bin Laden meant and still means it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:14 pm
Ican,

You know we disagree on the fundamental issue of what a lie is. You prefer to ignore the continual and dire repetition of WMD over and over again by Bush and every one of his cronies. I do not; and I certainly don't want to argue with you over it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ican, You know we disagree on the fundamental issue of what a lie is.[

I forgot!
What do you think a lie is?
A falsehood?
A purposeful falsehood?
An unintentional falsehood?
Some combination of the above?
Something else?

Please tell me again what you think a lie is. Then please tell me what lies (as you define lie), if any, you perceive to be in those two quotes from the 9-11 Commission Report that I posted here in response to you.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:31 pm
Great point Fox. That could be a poor market street practically anywhere on earth. I've seen worse, in 3 countries, all richer than Iraq and I've hardly traveled at all.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:34 pm
You'll have to hold up both sides of the argument; as I said, I don't want to argue this issue with ya.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:50 pm
Obill, it was just to illustrate the probability that somebody could probably find a dog leash there somewhere if they wanted one. And of course Baghdad is a far more modern city.

As a quick aside to the issue of dog collars and leashes, I would mention that there are some, I think 2300 members of the K-9 force and a good number of these are on duty in Iraq to ferret out explosives, help with patrols, etc. etc. In fact, in the whole Abu Ghraib scandal, one of the complaints was that dogs were being used to intimidate prisoners. That to me seems the most logical explanation for the presence of collars and leashes in the prison rather than the president or other high command sending the Army to Iraq with such equipment in their back packs.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforce/a/afk9dogs.htm
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:51 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
McTag wrote:
From my standpoint now, I look on this current administration as your author Al Franken does when he wrote "Dude, Where's My Country?" in that I do not recognise the former USA in today's version. I consider this invasion as a crime, and America to be very mis-led.
I consider this an insult. Neither I, nor the majority of my countrymen recognize Al Franken as our spokesperson.
Insult schminsult. Bill, do you go round pretending to be Robert de Niro in front of mirrors? You know, "You talkin to me?"?

I happen to think, like Al Franken and close to 49% of your countrymen, that the country has taken a wrong turn in having anything to do with the policies of George Bush. If that insults you, go ahead, be insulted. I will keep my freedom of speech which GWBs illustrious predecessors helped win for me, thank you.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
....Now, once you reconcile yourself to this simple truth you have little choice but to admit that the United States is head and shoulders above any and all of history's alpha's in terms of benevolence. So distasteful is such an admission to you to that you've gone to great lengths to avoid it. Even in your catch up round when you cited the question, you still avoided the answer. Idea


You keep on with badgering people to give an answer in the form acceptable to you. A form of arrogance, IMO. Sometimes my answers are more interestion to me than following your prompts, straw men, and nonsequiturs. And sometimes, not too often mind, you ask a killer question. :wink:

This is a version of your "benevolence" theme where you are comparing the USA's behaviour post- conflict to- what? the Mongol hordes? The Ottoman Turks? The Nazis? The Romans? The Japanese pre- 1946? The British pre- 1914?

It's very hard to compare different situations in different historical periods. I wish a historian could come in on this; Setanta, are you there?
My opinion, stated before, is that states (and The States) act only out of perceived self-interest, not benevolence. The Marshall Plan, very important in postwar Europe, helped Europe get going again, stimulated the economy of all including the USA, and ensured the Soviets could not get further west.
The US came into WWI only after 3 years had passed, and stalemate existed. The US came into WWII only after 3 years had passed, Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor and Hitler had declared war on the United States, bad move Adolf. We in the UK received much in the way of supplies and help which kept us alive, but this was not a free gift, and one of the conditions was the breakup of the British Empire. Many bases granted worldwide. You've heard of Diego Garcia? Very important base, was British, now American. Plenty more.
Self-interest chiefly, not benevolence, IMO, but I for one am very grateful nevertheless. Even if my German is rather poor. Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Here's a shot of downtown Fallujah. What do you think McTag?



OCCOM BILL wrote:
Great point Fox. That could be a poor market street practically anywhere on earth. I've seen worse, in 3 countries, all richer than Iraq and I've hardly traveled at all.




I don't know what McTag thinks, but I think, the Iraqians did a good and fast job there to start normal life so soon again:

Quote:
Marines recover, bury enemy remains in Fallujah
Submitted by: 1st Force Service Support Group
Story Identification #: 2004121815626
Story by Lance Cpl. T. J. Kaemmerer

FALLUJAH, Iraq (Dec. 17, 2004) -- On the northern edge of the city where Marines poised for their overwhelming attack a little over a month ago, they were still hard at work - putting the enemy fighters in their final resting place.

With the body count from Operation Al Fajr still on the rise and raging battles ensuing about a mile away, the last of more than 460 bodies collected from fighting in Fallujah were placed in graves December 11, 2004, by 1st FSSG's Provisional Mortuary Affairs Company.
Source
Quote:

Fallujah not ready for return of civilians: US military

Web posted at: 12/18/2004
Source ::: AFP
NEAR FALLUJAH: Ongoing fighting between US marines and insurgents in the former rebel bastion of Fallujah makes the imminent return of residents announced by the Iraqi government unlikely, US officers said yesterday.

"Enough supplies and basic services will be in place to start returns next week," the interim Iraqi government said on Thursday.

But a marine officer based outside the city, requesting anonymity, said that such a scenario "seems highly unlikely, if you consider that we are still fighting the rebels at this very moment".

Almost all of the city's 250,000 to 300,000 residents fled the city, 50km west of Baghdad, before and after the start of a massive US-led assault on Fallujah on November 8.

"We shouldn't plan on anything happening before the first of January, at best... the difficult thing being to discriminate between the civilians and the bad guys," said Marine Lieutenant Rex McIntosh.

The marines say they are distributing aid to the few families still remaining in the city, where the infrastructure is severely damaged, including water and electricity supplies.

Fallujah's houses are also largely in ruins, providing inadequate shelter as nighttime temperatures fall to below freezing.

In the nearby town of Karma, around 200 displaced residents of battle-scarred Fallujah demonstrated outside a mosque, demanding that they be allowed back to their homes.

"American forces out of Fallujah, families must return peacefully to their homes," read a tract handed out by the demonstrators.
Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:58 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Here's a shot of downtown Fallujah. What do you think McTag?



Touche, Foxy, sometimes my jokes are in bad taste.

That picture, mind you, did not look as if it was taken this year. I've seen other pictures a bit different, where the stores were completely out of restraint gear or even S&M stuff. And windows, and walls.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:11 pm
Quote:
Baghdad Burning


... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...

Saturday, December 18, 2004

Christmas Wishlist...
I have to make this fast.

No electricity for three days in a row (well, unless you count that glorious hour we got 3 days ago...). Generators on gasoline are hardly working at all. Generators on diesel fuel aren't faring much better- most will only work for 3 or 4 straight hours then they have to be turned off to rest.

Ok- what is the typical Iraqi Christmas wishlist (I won't list 'peace', 'security' and 'freedom' - Christmas miracles are exclusive to Charles Dickens), let's see:

1. 20 liters of gasoline
2. A cylinder of gas for cooking
3. Kerosene for the heaters
4. Those expensive blast-proof windows
5. Landmine detectors
6. Running water
7. Thuraya satellite phones (the mobile phone services are really, really bad of late)
8. Portable diesel generators (for the whole family to enjoy!)
9. Coleman rechargeable flashlight with extra batteries (you can never go wrong with a fancy flashlight)
10. Scented candles (it shows you care- but you're also practical)

When Santa delivers please make sure he is wearing a bullet-proof vest and helmet. He should also politely ring the doorbell or knock, as a more subtle entry might bring him face to face with an AK-47. With the current fuel shortage, reindeer and a sleigh are highly practical- but Rudolph should be left behind as the flashing red nose might create a bomb scare (we're all a little jumpy lately).
Source: River Bend: Iraq Blog
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:15 pm
Walter - I also read Riverbend. Just for purposes of clarity, let me remind readers here that there are some hundred or so blogs in the vein of IraqTheModel (those delightful dentists/brothers) living in Baghdad and roughly four blogs like Riverbend's that see nothing but the doom and gloom.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:27 pm
I'm not there, so I don't now (besides that I've sceptic views about any blog).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:37 pm
McTag wrote
Quote:
That picture, mind you, did not look as if it was taken this year. I've seen other pictures a bit different, where the stores were completely out of restraint gear or even S&M stuff. And windows, and walls.


You may be right but I believe it isn't all that old--if I can find the site where I picked it up again I'll post the link. Most of the fighting in Fallujah, however, has not been downtown but rather in the adjacent neighborhoods and mosques so I rather think downtown has been left mostly unscathed. I could be wrong because like Walter, I haven't been there.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:48 pm
Well, and today some (US-) papers say "US military: Fallujah not ready for return of civilians", others "Civilians may return" or "Civilians may return next week".

But it seems that until now/today, not more than a couple of families are living there.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 05:11 pm
looking at the link for the picture, it seems to have been posted in the archives on 040309
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 05:21 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Walter - I also read Riverbend. Just for purposes of clarity, let me remind readers here that there are some hundred or so blogs in the vein of IraqTheModel (those delightful dentists/brothers) living in Baghdad and roughly four blogs like Riverbend's that see nothing but the doom and gloom.


If you search just a tiny bit further, you'll find several hundred more blogs in the Riverbend vein. It was a bit depressing to find them. There are 114,000 hits in groups listed at Google just searching under Fallujah.

It's actually a sadly funny search. Pages of atrocity/battle/dead ... countered by an ad -

Joining Marines
Learn more about the Marines.
Free Info, No Obligation.
www. military. com

sample
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 05:43 pm
McTag wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
McTag wrote:
From my standpoint now, I look on this current administration as your author Al Franken does when he wrote "Dude, Where's My Country?" in that I do not recognise the former USA in today's version. I consider this invasion as a crime, and America to be very mis-led.
I consider this an insult. Neither I, nor the majority of my countrymen recognize Al Franken as our spokesperson.
Insult schminsult. Bill, do you go round pretending to be Robert de Niro in front of mirrors? You know, "You talkin to me?"?

I happen to think, like Al Franken and close to 49% of your countrymen, that the country has taken a wrong turn in having anything to do with the policies of George Bush. If that insults you, go ahead, be insulted. I will keep my freedom of speech which GWBs illustrious predecessors helped win for me, thank you.
You, Al Franken and the 30% minority of my countrymen who voiced (:wink:) their agreement with your sentiments, haven't insulted me by doing so. The insult is found is the assumption that the majority of Americans are stupid enough to "be very mis-led". Of course, you already know that, if you read the rest of that paragraph before leaving the following on the cutting room floor. :wink:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
We elected George Bush for that job. I respect you for marching for your beliefs, but don't let A2K's liberal slant fool you: Neither I nor the majority of my countrymen agree with your reasons for doing it. We re-elected George Bush despite, and in part because, of you (and your ilk's) assumption that we were foolishly mislead. While you are recognizing everyone's right to dissent, you damn well better recognize the majority's right to agree with Bush's actions. While we are certainly less likely to be offended when you attack Bush & Co., instead of Americans in general, such attacks nonetheless are on us. "How can 300,000,000 people be so stupid?" is not a headline likely to win our hearts and minds, you know? I wonder if any other alpha's benevolence was ever taken for granted so often or easily as ours, let alone denied.

I'm gonna go ahead and restore the deleted meat of the next paragraph as well, since I don't consider it a Strawman or Non Sequitur, but rather a valid point-clarifying example.
McTag wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
You and Revel pretending that comparing alphas to alphas is irrelevant is akin to employees comparing what they would do if they were in charge, to the person who actually had the wherewithal to be in charge. You can't judge a CEO without comparing him to other CEOs. Stating that Jane from Human Resources or ANY other would-be leader might be better is what's irrelevant. ....Now, once you reconcile yourself to this simple truth you have little choice but to admit that the United States is head and shoulders above any and all of history's alpha's in terms of benevolence. So distasteful is such an admission to you to that you've gone to great lengths to avoid it. Even in your catch up round when you cited the question, you still avoided the answer. Idea


You keep on with badgering people to give an answer in the form acceptable to you. A form of arrogance, IMO. Sometimes my answers are more interestion to me than following your prompts, straw men, and nonsequiturs. And sometimes, not too often mind, you ask a killer question. :wink:
Sometimes your answers are more interesting to me than those things as well… but not when you continue the same line of reasoning that the "killer question" disputes. Where you have a right to avoid it, I have mine to reassert it. (Watch what happens if Cyclops over simplifies Realistic Vs. Idealistic again :wink:)(As you well know, sometimes arrogance is fun.)

[smug]Good to see you finally admit the obvious point of our benevolent superiority.[/smug] Sure, it doesn't seem fair since our alpha-predecessors were such fiends, but that hardly makes it irrelevant. The world is still teaming with would-be alphas whose horrors would predictably be worse than many in history. It is absurd for you to simultaneously rely on our evenhandedness even while denying its existence or lack of precedence. On the grand scale, I'm not that much more satisfied with our progress than you (really, I'm not)… but I insist recognition be given to our progress, because it's a precursor for the question why. Why is the United States the leader of the free world? :wink:

Could it be that our system is a good one? Shocked Or even, gasp, a great one? Perhaps we're not talking out of our arses when we suggest some improvements on some crazy-screwed up systems in the ME. All systems are NOT created equal. Perhaps, if you look past our intolerable arrogance, you'll see that our selfish, capitalistic, self-determination-worshipping system really is far superior to all that preceded it. I don't bring this up to brag, but to justify my desire to share our system with the rest of the world. People are people and all should be entitled to the opportunities I have. To hell with a country's right to repress it's citizens. That's a hold-over from the days of Kings and slaves. Isn't it time we pay more attention to the rights of the people than their oppressors?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 05:45 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ican, You know we disagree on the fundamental issue of what a lie is.[

I forgot!
What do you think a lie is?
A falsehood or falsity?
A purposeful falsehood or falsity?
An unintentional falsehood or falsity?
Some combination of the above?
Something else?

Please tell me again what you think a lie is. Then please tell me what lies (as you define lie), if any, you perceive to be in the following two quotes from the 9-11 Commission Report:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
2 THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM
2.1 A DECLARATION OF WAR
In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin and a fugitive Egyptian physician, Ayman al Zawahiri, arranged from their Afghan headquarters for an Arabic newspaper in London to publish what they termed a fatwa issued in the name of a "World Islamic Front." A fatwa is normally an interpretation of Islamic law by a respected Islamic authority, but neither Bin Ladin, Zawahiri, nor the three others who signed this statement were scholars of Islamic law. Claiming that America had declared war against God and his messenger, they called for the murder of any American, anywhere on earth, as the "individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."1

Three months later, when interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV, Bin Ladin enlarged on these themes.2 He claimed it was more important for Muslims to kill Americans than to kill other infidels. "It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities," he said. Asked whether he approved of terrorism and of attacks on civilians, he replied: "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets."

Though novel for its open endorsement of indiscriminate killing, Bin Ladin's 1998 declaration was only the latest in the long series of his public and private calls since 1992 that singled out the United States for attack.
In August 1996, Bin Ladin had issued his own self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia. The long, disjointed document condemned the Saudi monarchy for allowing the presence of an army of infidels in a land with the sites most sacred to Islam, and celebrated recent suicide bombings of American military facilities in the Kingdom. It praised the 1983 suicide bombing in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines, the 1992 bombing in Aden, and especially the 1993 firefight in Somalia after which the United States "left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you."3

Bin Ladin said in his ABC interview that he and his followers had been preparing in Somalia for another long struggle, like that against the Soviets in Afghanistan, but "the United States rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace." Citing the Soviet army's withdrawal from Afghanistan as proof that a ragged army of dedicated Muslims could overcome a superpower, he told the interviewer: "We are certain that we shall-with the grace of Allah-prevail over the Americans." He went on to warn that "If the present injustice continues . . . , it will inevitably move the battle to American soil."4

Plans to attack the United States were developed with unwavering single-mindedness throughout the 1990s. Bin Ladin saw himself as called "to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations,"5 and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam.


Quote:
10
WARTIME
10.3 "PHASE TWO" AND THE QUESTION OF IRAQ

Franks told us that he was pushing independently to do more robust planning on military responses in Iraq during the summer before 9/11-a request President Bush denied, arguing that the time was not right. (CENTCOM also began dusting off plans for a full invasion of Iraq during this period, Franks said.) The CENTCOM commander told us he renewed his appeal for further military planning to respond to Iraqi moves shortly after 9/11, both because he personally felt that Iraq and al Qaeda might be engaged in some form of collusion and because he worried that Saddam might take advantage of the attacks to move against his internal enemies in the northern or southern parts of Iraq, where the United States was flying regular missions to enforce Iraqi no-fly zones. Franks said that President Bush again turned down the request.79

Having issued directives to guide his administration's preparations for war, on Thursday, September 20, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress. "Tonight," he said, "we are a country awakened to danger."80 The President blamed al Qaeda for 9/11 and the 1998 embassy bombings and, for the first time, declared that al Qaeda was "responsible for bombing the USS Cole."81 He reiterated the ultimatum that had already been conveyed privately. "The Taliban must act, and act immediately," he said. "They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate."82 The President added that America's quarrel was not with Islam: "The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them." Other regimes faced hard choices, he pointed out: "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."83

President Bush argued that the new war went beyond Bin Ladin. "Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there," he said. "It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated." The President had a message for the Pentagon: "The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud." He also had a message for those outside the United States. "This is civilization's fight," he said. "We ask every nation to join us."84
0 Replies
 
 

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