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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:20 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Tico Wrote:
Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Nice to see you guys making light of a very probable situation involving the murder of innocents. Not surprising, however.

Cycloptichorn


I'm not "making light" of it, I just don't believe him.


Why not? What reason has he given you to doubt his word?

Cycloptichorn


Since you asked ...

Quote:
Slandering the Troops in Order to Defeat Them

In the presence of an embedded reporter, in March 2003, Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey, of the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Weapons Company, mocked an Iraqi civilian who was trying to communicate with Marines:

They were just two farmers on their way across a familiar field to the nearby town to get gasoline for their vehicle, when suddenly they were on the ground surrounded by men in uniforms pointing weapons at their heads.

"Keep your head down," shouted Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey, 31, of Waynesville, N.C.

While they waited for interrogators to arrive, O'Neill showed one of the Iraqis pictures of enemy vehicles in a 500-plus-page manual. The man motioned that he didn't recognize any of the vehicles.

The men, who did not speak English, tried to communicate with their hands.

"What, you feel like break-dancing?" joked Massey. "Know any songs by Michael Jackson?"

A little more than a year later, Massey implied to the Associated Press that excessive 9/11 rhetoric might have contributed to the atmosphere that facilitated the Abu Ghraib abuses:

"Soldiers were encouraged to make the incorrect links," said Jimmy Massey, a former Marine sergeant from Waynesboro, N.C., who served in Iraq, then quit the force and has affiliated with an anti-war group called Veterans for Peace.

Massey said "a bunch of innocent civilians" were killed by his platoon and he attributed these deaths in part to military intelligence reports warning of potential terrorist attacks by non-uniformed Iraqis.

"You put a bunch of Army or Marines out in the desert and tell them to guard these supposed terrorists, and they're going to start inventing ways to keep themselves busy," Massey said.

In between these two press mentions, Massey lost his swagger in Iraq, was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, received a discharge, and began decrying war crimes ?- first to French media, but increasingly in the United States. Suffice to say, it's been a rough, but exciting, year for Sgt. Massey, and thanks, in part, to left-wing blogs, the months to come look to be even more exciting.

The domestic buzz began with an interview that Massey gave to anti-war activist Paul Rockwell for the Sacramento Bee, and some of what he says therein is eerily familiar:

Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?

A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people.

The accounts that Massey relates aren't pleasant. "Trigger happy" American military personnel throwing the corpses of Iraqi civilians in a ditch. Orders from "senior government officials" to wipe out peaceful demonstrators. Marines firing on Iraqi motorists with their hands up at checkpoints. "Fallujah is just littered with civilian bodies." The 31-year-old sergeant told his commanding officer, "We're committing genocide."

According to a February 11 piece in the Waynesville Mountaineer, on April 15, 2003, one year to the day after he was pulled from his duty as a recruiter in North Carolina, Massey approached his commanding officer in Iraq confessing depression. The next stop was a visit to a Navy psychiatrist:

"You have every right to feel the way you feel," the doctor told him.

But did he, Massey wondered? Civilians might be sickened by the killing, but a Marine is not supposed to be. "I was the ultimate war machine, all blood and guts. I was embarrassed. I was supposed to be able to handle it." ...

In the morning Massey was called into the commanding officer's room. He was not cut out to be an officer in the Marines, the superior told him.

"He told me, 'You're a poor leader,' 'You're faking it,' 'You're a conscientious objector,' 'You're a wimp,'" said Massey. "You don't respond to that. You just stand there and take it. But my sanity was not worth the U.S. Marine Corps."

Massey spent the next six months or so in California, apparently sorting out his discharge, with a lawyer "who defended American soldiers after the Mai Lai attack in Vietnam." On November 14, he received the verdict that his would be "a medical retirement." Massey described the incident that precipitated this change, and threatened his sanity, in a French article put into circulation in early April. Translated in the Chronogram:

It was very warm that day, and Baghdad hadn't fallen completely. A red Kia Spectra sped toward our checkpoint at about 45 miles per hour. We fired a warning volley above it but the car kept coming. Then we aimed at the car and fired with full force. I made eye contact with the driver. The Kia came to a stop right in front of me, three of the four men shot dead, the fourth wounded and covered in blood. When he saw that his brother, the driver, was dead, he collapsed and fell to the curb, waving his arms frantically. And when we were pulling his brother out, he started running and screaming, 'Why did you kill my brother?! We didn't do anything!'

In that piece, by Natasha Saulnier, the accusations escalate. Regarding the desecrated contractors:

When I read about the mutilated, charred bodies of the Blackwater mercenaries in the news, all I thought was that we did the same thing to them. They would see us debase their dead all the time. We would be messing around with charred bodies, kicking them out of the vehicles and sticking cigarettes in their mouths.

Regarding operations with Task Force 121, including representatives of the Delta Forces, Navy Seals, and CIA Paramilitaries:

We would go into villages and stick C-4 explosives on the doors of supposed Saddam loyalists, and we would ransack their houses like the Gestapo. The Spooks would wait until we blew them up and secure the occupants inside, then they would go in. They never found anything except for large quantities of money. ... The Spooks would put [the occupants] on the floor and take over. We would leave and I don't know what happened to them but I heard from intelligence reports that some occupants were blown up.

Massey tells of firing on targets the nature of which only "higher headquarters" knew, and Massey didn't trust that the targets weren't civilians. Sprinkled throughout Saulnier's piece are supposedly corroborating accounts from other sources. An anonymous 23-year-old Marine tells of defecating on "run over dead Iraqi bodies." The same source asserts:

One day, I watched as the Marine Corps pushed the bodies of 47 Iraqis into a mass grave with a bulldozer. I don't know if they were civilians but they looked like it because some of them were wearing dress shoes like loafers. Our sergeant was looking for bombs with metal detectors. Then he went out on the bodies and picked them for jewels and money. He also took their IDs and sold them to Marines for trophies to show off when they'd come back to the us.

This slanderous tone is the building rumble. Saulnier quotes a rhyme of unclear origin ?- "Throw some candy in the school yard / watch the children gather round / Load a belt in your M-50 / mow them little bastards down!" ?- that appears to have inspired other French accounts, first translated on Islamonline.net:

Massey cited instructions of commanders disregarding lives of Iraq civilians as one of many reasons still driving him nuts.

"Throw candies in the school courtyard, and open fire on children rushing to snatch them. Crush them," he recalled officers as saying during drills.

Thus do the dark, libelous accusations of the anti-war Left from the days of Vietnam reappear. Instead of napalm, we get cluster bombs. Back to the interview with Rockwell:

Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs?

A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an ICBM.

Q: What's an ICBM?

A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb.

Q: What happened?

A: He stepped on it. We didn't get to training about clusters until about a month before I left.

Q: What kind of training?

A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them.

Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped?

A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere.

Q: Dropped from the air?

A: From the air as well as artillery.

Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities?

A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they're everywhere.

Q: Including inside the towns and cities?

A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be ICBMs.

Presumably, Massey means ICM (Improved Conventional Munitions), not ICBM (InterContinental Ballistic Missile),* but the point is clear: to raise visions of massacres and indiscriminate killing, simply ignoring claims and evidence of meticulous care to minimize casualties. Rockwell asks about the specter from the 1991 Gulf War, depleted uranium, and Massey includes it in his declaration of genocide to his commanding officer:

He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.

In no previous article has Massey mentioned DU. Rockwell, on the other hand, included the matter in his document "U.S. War Crimes in Iraq: A Prima Facie Case," which he apparently "respectfully submitted to the International Criminal Court."

This is how the anti-war forces seek to defeat the U.S. military. Seeping from conspiratorial Web sites and foreign anti-American rags into the mainstream consciousness like leech-filled swamp water rising through the floor boards, the level of conceivability for accusations notches up as time goes on ?- as September 11 recedes and as the election approaches. Whatever their motivation, and whether or not they believe the sunny delusions about the world scene after an American defeat, those who enable, promote, and lend credibility to this propaganda assault must be faced and stared down this time around the historical cycle.

Our nation cannot afford to follow either John Kerry or any Generation X versions of the anti-war veteran. Jimmy Massey cannot escape the implications of what he is declaring to all the world by laying blame with the President based on clichés about war for oil and lies about weapons of mass destruction. And we who understand the importance of success cannot afford to keep our heads down.


http://dustinthelight.timshelarts.com/lint/000567.html
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/war.nsf/0/C521416C97C3443586256CFA0029028F?OpenDocument
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:47 am
McTag wrote:
No, BS it's unfortunately not. It is no longer possible for non-military christians to worship in Iraq, it's not tolerated. Many have had to flee. I can find you some links in corroboration, if pressed.
I've offered you proof that Christian persecution didn't begin with, and has nothing to do with the invasion. That there is less order in a post-war struggle is too be expected.

McTag wrote:
And, nothing I have written pretends that Iraq was a lovely place before. That, it clearly wasn't.
And, nothing I have written says that there are no people in Iraq trying to do good. That, there clearly are.
You wrote: "Before the recent invasion, Iraq was a country where various religions co-existed. Not any longer. Islamic fundamentalists have forced the others, including christians, out." This statement suggests that pre-war Iraq was tolerant of Christianity... and that is BS. It further suggests that you know what the future holds, which you don't. Any added post-war restlessness and lawlessness is to be expected and is not necessarily indicative of what the future will bring. I repeat: Religious persecution has nothing to do with the invasion. Got that?

McTag wrote:
None of that should mask the fact though, that an illegal, immoral invasion has taken place and that tens of thousands of innocent people, at a very conservative estimate, have been needlessly killed.
Bolded portion above should be replaced with "changes my opinion" and then it is a reasonable statement. "illegal", "immoral" and "needlessly" are all reflective of your opinion, NOT FACT. Repeating your opinions and discussing them with like-minded people doesn't make them fact. Idea
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:51 am
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1120-01.htm
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:53 am
http://www.peaceandfreedom.org/Iraq_Invasion_Statement.shtml
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:55 am
http://electroniciraq.net/news/1354.shtml
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:56 am
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/ilaw-m26.shtml
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:57 am
Illegal? YOu damn right!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 12:23 pm
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 12:40 pm
<nudges bill>

Hey, wake up, you're snoring....
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:02 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
PDiddie wrote:
Man.

Bold and underlined and italicized.

Is that the same as screaming into a megaphone broadcast over a P.A. system?

I must say (no matter how loud you say it) that it is still bullshit.


He's obviously trying to get it through your thick skulls. Doesn't appear he's having much success.


Laughing BINGO! Laughing
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:00 pm
OBill

"I repeat: Religious persecution has nothing to do with the invasion. Got that?"

I disagree. Saddam, being in a minority muslim sect, suppressed religious dissent, and his brutal police suppressed persecution and held the lid down on this misbegotten mix of a country. Take away Saddam and his police, and the fundamentalist bandits have free rein, or as much as they can get away with, since there is no social cohesion nor order now. I admit, it may get better (it can hardly get worse) and true, I do not know what the future holds. But, worship in the Iraqi christian community has been stopped, and many of them have fled. Churches have been bombed. As a direct result of the invasion. Got that?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:04 pm
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/105/54.0.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:06 pm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002682.php
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:08 pm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33073
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:10 pm
Lots of stuff's been bombed McTag. Every radical Iraqi with an opinion is scrambling to be heard. Bandits and outlaws of all kind are no doubt doing there worst. All is to be expected. If you think Saddam protected the Christians, you are simply wrong. I have little doubt that the persecution intensified, along with EVERY other form of defiance with Saddam's removal. That is temporary and is to be expected. The persecution itself has nothing, hear me?, NOTHING to do with the invasion. That hatred beat us there.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:12 pm
Interesting link about the christians, c.i., thank you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:21 pm
"Nothing to do with the invasion." It was an illegal 'invasion.' Nothing? Some people won't take responsibility for anything. Like the quagmire we're now in that's costing American lives and our treasure. That happened only because of our 'invasion.' If we had followed the advise of the world's governments and peoples, we won't be where we are today in Iraq. It has everything to do with the "invasion."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:22 pm
Bill

I wonder, why you obviously neglect the Assyrians in Iraq, an estimated 1.5 to 2 million of Christians, about 8 percent of the Iraqi population (which is much more than e.g. the Kurds).


As said here

Quote:
It is vital that America remain true to the principles of democracy and support all minorities in Iraq, even if they are Christian
.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:45 pm
This is the statement I took issue with... because it is false:
Quote:
Before the recent invasion, Iraq was a country where various religions co-existed. Not any longer. Islamic fundamentalists have forced the others, including christians, out.


Persecution of Christians was there long before we were. Your collective desire to blame everything on the U.S. is clouding your vision.
Watch:
After the fall of Bagdad, vandals destroyed many statues around town. Is this because the U.S. spreads vandalism? Shocked Or, is it perhaps people doing what they always wanted to do in the expected chaotic aftermath of war? Idea
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:55 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Or, is it perhaps people doing what they always wanted to do in the expected chaotic aftermath of war? Idea


So these people just waited all the years for the USA to invade, bring war and choas to country, only because they wanted to destroy many statues around town. Idea
0 Replies
 
 

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