0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 11:28 pm
So much fodder for this administration. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/10/international/middleeast/10military.html?ex=1260334800&en=ce649ca47217a3d7&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 11:32 pm
There is nothing as urgent as when you are personally exposed to the insurgent's road bombs and rockets. I'd like to see Rummy and Bush ride shotgun on one of those big trucks.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:33 am
Meanwhile, the 1,000th soldier to die in action in Iraq since last year's US-invasion was killed during an operation. Sad
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 01:31 am
Only to share the information:

Quote:
Series of photos of city's dead show civilians shot in bed, surrendering
Two weeks ago an Iraqi man was allowed into Fallujah by the U.S. military to help bury bodies. He was allowed to take photographs of 75 bodies, in order to show pictures to relatives so that they might be identified before they were buried.

These pictures are from a book of photos. They are being circulated publicly around small villages near Fallujah where many refugees are staying.

The man who took them was only allowed to take photos and bury bodies in one small area of Fallujah. He was not allowed to visit anywhere else. Keep in mind there are at least 1,925 other bodies that were not allowed to be seen.

Information with some of the photos is from those identified by family members already.

One of the family members who was looking for dead relatives, shared these photos which were taken from that book.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, he told of what he saw in his village during the last few weeks.

"The Americans shot every boat on the river because people were trying to escape Fallujah by the river. They shot all the sheep, any animal people owned was shot. Helicopters shot all the animals and anything that moved in all the villages surrounding Fallujah during the fighting."

He said that none of the roads into Fallujah, or around Fallujah were passable because anyone on them was shot. "I know one family that were all killed. There are no signs on these roads that tell people not to use them-so people don't know they aren't supposed to use them. No signs in English or Arabic!"

The photos can be viewed here* [WARNING THEY ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC]
Source

* besides, a very slow loading page. sometimes no access.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 01:56 am
How, exactly, has your "some evidence" been confirmed since our invasion and occupation of Iraq, ican? All you've presented so far are reiterations of your belief in the words "indications," "tolerance" and "may even have helped," and misrepresentations of the words of others.

So, as I suspected, your dire claims of certain death had we waited for proof instead of acted on ALLEGATIONS is merely blustery, hyperbolic BS, and you justify your support of our violence, destruction and killing in Iraq thereof.

How is al Qaeda's declaration of war on Americans, and the US' declaration that we "would punish not just the perpetrators of the attacks but also those who harbored them," and al Qaeda's mass murdering trends, and your bet that al Qaeda is serious and means what it says, and your lack of proof that al Qaeda will continue until we destroy it or it destroys us proof or even evidence that Saddam harbored al Qaeda? All you've provided here is one gargantuan non-sequitur.

At the very least, it's a relief that you don't support the invasion and occupation of all countries with box cutters, and those that would harbor wielders of box cutters and the deadly like. I think you're making progress, ican.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 04:21 am
here ya go... bring the troops home, and send the members of congress over to take care of it. of course, our war president and granpa dick will be leading the charge; with wolfowitz sitting on the hood like an ornament, condi in the back seat making sandwiches for the boys and rumsfeld trying to escape his assigned place in the trunk.

they all screwed up. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 05:29 am
The thing I can't understand is how it is going to be governed in the future. I can't see democracy working over there.Its a total shambles.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:12 am
5 Entries found for democracy.
De·moc·ra·cy audio pronunciation of "democracy" ( p ) pronunciation key (d-mkr-s)
n. Pl. De·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

This is so screwed up. Nothing our blood is being shed for applies to america!??? All we do is bleat our opposition while the bastards tell us 'get over it .... If you don't like it vote for change' ........ Headline news people ... they control the vote!!!
"it's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (joseph stalin)
does anyone really believe that bush gives a rats ass for democracy in iraq or any place on earth when he treats it with such utter distain in america?!?!?
Isn't it about time bush takes more than two questions, with no follow up?
What is it going to take to wake you up America ....100,000 of our sons and daughters lying in their graves while Jerry Falwell,as the duly elected 'state's minister', gives the benediction ???!!! State cameras in our homes ..... how close are we to an 'Orwellian' nightmare?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:28 am
Laughing not that the subject is funny but just the way you worded it. "wolfowitz on the car like an ornament and condi making sandwiches..."

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
here ya go... bring the troops home, and send the members of congress over to take care of it. of course, our war president and granpa dick will be leading the charge; with wolfowitz sitting on the hood like an ornament, condi in the back seat making sandwiches for the boys and rumsfeld trying to escape his assigned place in the trunk.

they all screwed up. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:30 am
Sometimes I can't hardly believe that this is us. Crying or Very sad (as in us in the US)

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Only to share the information:

Quote:
Series of photos of city's dead show civilians shot in bed, surrendering
Two weeks ago an Iraqi man was allowed into Fallujah by the U.S. military to help bury bodies. He was allowed to take photographs of 75 bodies, in order to show pictures to relatives so that they might be identified before they were buried.

These pictures are from a book of photos. They are being circulated publicly around small villages near Fallujah where many refugees are staying.

The man who took them was only allowed to take photos and bury bodies in one small area of Fallujah. He was not allowed to visit anywhere else. Keep in mind there are at least 1,925 other bodies that were not allowed to be seen.

Information with some of the photos is from those identified by family members already.

One of the family members who was looking for dead relatives, shared these photos which were taken from that book.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, he told of what he saw in his village during the last few weeks.

"The Americans shot every boat on the river because people were trying to escape Fallujah by the river. They shot all the sheep, any animal people owned was shot. Helicopters shot all the animals and anything that moved in all the villages surrounding Fallujah during the fighting."

He said that none of the roads into Fallujah, or around Fallujah were passable because anyone on them was shot. "I know one family that were all killed. There are no signs on these roads that tell people not to use them-so people don't know they aren't supposed to use them. No signs in English or Arabic!"

The photos can be viewed here* [WARNING THEY ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC]
Source

* besides, a very slow loading page. sometimes no access.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:34 am
more news.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_IRAQ_MILITARY?SITE=TNCLE&SECTION=HOME

Dec 10, 6:46 AM EST

Charges of Poor Planning for War Revived

By PAULINE JELINEK
Associated Press Writer


Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Critics of the war in Iraq seized on charges that U.S. troops there don't have enough armored vehicles as another example of poor planning by the Pentagon.

President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld tried Thursday to tamp down the firestorm, which was ignited a day earlier when an Iraq-bound soldier publicly complained to Rumsfeld that the Army wasn't properly armoring vehicles for the campaign.

Traveling in India, Rumsfeld said he expects the Army to do its best to resolve the problem. In Washington, Bush said the soldier's concerns "are being addressed and that is - we expect our troops to have the best possible equipment."

Close to three-quarters of the Humvees in the Iraq war theater now have upgraded armor protection, but many larger trucks and tractor-trailer rigs do not, according to congressional figures.

Military officials said armoring Humvees has been the top priority because they are used to patrol areas where attacks are likely. The heavy haulers, meanwhile, usually travel convoy routes that are more frequently swept for guerillas and bombs.

Critics questioned why the Pentagon has been unable to send enough armored equipment 21 months into the war. They said war planners had too rosy a picture of how the campaign would unfold and so didn't think so many troops and so much armor would be needed for so long.

"This is about faulty analysis and a failed strategy," said Rep. Ellen Tauscher, a California Democrat who sits on the House Armed Services Committee. "We've never had enough troops on the ground since the fall of Saddam Hussein's government to deal with the insurgency because we didn't expect one."

Loren Thompson, a defense industry analyst with the Lexington Institute think tank, agreed.

"We have pretty much miscalculated every step along the way - why we went, how we should do it, what we needed, what support we would have, how long it would last - we pretty much got it all wrong," he said.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_SOLDIER_KILLING?SITE=MNROC&SECTION=HOME

Dec 10, 8:20 AM EST

U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen

By PAUL GARWOOD
Associated Press Writer

Quote:
"The convictions stemmed from Staff Sgt. Horne's murder of a severely wounded Iraqi civilian in Baghdad's Sadr City district," a military statement said.

Previous military court hearings have heard that several troops fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City, an impoverished Baghdad neighborhood.
[/b]
more Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 10:19 am
Why does it surprise anybody when the occasional soldier commits homicide? Does it not occur to you that many of these same offenders, would be homicidal even if they weren't in Iraq? Homicide offenders in this Country (2002 statistics) alone totaled 18,249. Fully 7,431 of those offenders were aged 18-24! Now consider that there are 28,899,571 people aged 18-24 in this country (US Census). That means; that age group alone produces one murderer for every 3,889 Americans aged 18-24... and these are National Statistics that haven't taken into account the disproportionate number of men in Iraq nor the dangerous assignments they carry out. Therefore, just to keep up with the National average, there would need be 25-30 homicide offenders for every 100,000 troops in this age group... each and every year. Personally, considering what these brave men and women are doing on a daily basis, I would expect a higher snap-rate than the national average.

I find it appalling that those of you who wish to demonize the US Military blow relatively low homicide numbers so far out of proportion to reality. The reality is: a percentage of people everywhere are bad people... and these bad individuals are NOT representative of the group. Jeffrey Dahmer was one of the most evil creatures on planet earth... but his deeds tell you nothing about his parents home, let alone Milwaukee, Wisconsin or the United States. A little perspective wouldn't hurt. And it wouldn't kill you to give the brave men and women who populate our Military the benefit of the doubt.

Revel, the last thing you bolded for emphasis in your last post was:
Revel wrote:
Previous military court hearings have heard that several troops fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City, an impoverished Baghdad neighborhood.
What the hell is wrong with that?... and by extension, what's wrong with you? (Stop trying so hard to blame America first Idea).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 10:30 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Personally, considering what these brave men and women are doing on a daily basis, I would expect a higher snap-rate than the national average.


The braver, the more homicides Shocked


OCCOM BILL wrote:
The reality is: a percentage of people everywhere are bad people... and these bad individuals are NOT representative of the group.


Reminds me, how sensitive you wrote here about THE abusive Catholic priests.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 11:02 am
OCCOM BILL

Well said.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 11:17 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Personally, considering what these brave men and women are doing on a daily basis, I would expect a higher snap-rate than the national average.


The braver, the more homicides Shocked
Rolling Eyes Try reading what you quoted again, and then tell me where you got that idea...


Walter Hinteler wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The reality is: a percentage of people everywhere are bad people... and these bad individuals are NOT representative of the group.


Reminds me, how sensitive you wrote here about THE abusive Catholic priests.
Really? Could you remind me?

Thanks AU...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:04 pm
revel wrote:
Laughing not that the subject is funny but just the way you worded it. "wolfowitz on the car like an ornament and condi making sandwiches..."


hey revel! naw, i don't think the subject is funny.

i'm just so dern frustrated with the bunch of monkeys running this thing, i had no where else to go but to embrace my inner wise a$$.

reminds me. you said something on another thread about having to "drive 2 hours to get to a decent mall". man... where are you? like cumberland or something?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:05 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
How, exactly, has your "some evidence" been confirmed since our invasion and occupation of Iraq, ican?

Our military has itself witnessed the al Qaeda camps in northern Iraq before destroying them. Our military has itself witnessed the al Qaeda friends camps in southern Iraq before destroying them. Saddam was told by us about the northern camps and Zarqawi. The southern camps were south of Baghdad. I infer that means that al Qaeda and friends were harbored in Iraq on Saddam's watch with Saddam's knowledge and tolerance. You have yet to provide even some evidence that Saddam was ignorant of these camps or did not tolerate them.

Our primary reason for invading Afghanistan and our primary reason for invading Iraq were the same. The 9-11 Commission alleged that President Bush in his speech to the nation, 9/11/2001, 8:30 p.m. EDT, said: "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." The 9-11 Commission alleges that on the same evening President Bush said at a National Security Council meeting: "The United States would punish not just perpetrators of the attacks, but also those who harbored them."

What proof do you have that the invasion of Afghanistan was sufficient to cause al Qaeda to voluntarily abandon their several pre-Iraqi-invasion declarations of war against the United States in general and against American civilians in particular, if the United States had not also invaded Iraq? Since you have all this time not provided any such proof, I infer you have none. In fact I infer you don't even possess some evidence that al Qaeda would have voluntarily abandoned their several times announced objective to murder American civilians everywhere. The lack of even some evidence to support that assertion makes your assertion silly.

The probability that al Qaeda would nonetheless voluntarily abandon their several times announced objectives to mass murder American civilians everywhere is so low as to make it completely irresponsible for any American president not to order counterattacks and attempt to destroy al Qaeda wherever they are harbored, while replacing their harborers. It would be equally irresponsible not to attempt to replace their harborers with governments less likely to harbor al Qaeda or any other terrorists.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:11 pm
Bottom line, al Qaeda attacked the US. Not Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:11 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Our military has itself witnessed the al Qaeda camps in northern Iraq before destroying them.


Could you please a source for that.
(Or are you meaning the ultra-orthodox Kurdish group Ansar al Islam?)
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:24 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Bottom line, al Qaeda attacked the US. Not Iraq.


details, details...
0 Replies
 
 

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