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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 09:41 am
InfraBlue wrote:
There was some "al Qaeda" in a relatively small area of a region of Iraq that was out of the control of Saddam Hussein. We invaded and are occupying the entire country because of a pretext based on this fact. We didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan, we killed some of them, the rest fled elsewhere and are continually recruiting more people throughout the world with our inadvertent help. We went in to Afghanistan to get al Qaeda's number one, Osama bin Laden. Our adventure in Afghanistan has been an utter and miserable failure in that regard. We went in to Iraq on the pretext of getting "al Qaeda" there. Our adventure in Iraq has been an utter and miserable failure there. The insurgents against whom we are fighting are largely Iraqis bent on impelling us to get out. There are few al Qaeda there who form an amalgam fighting against a single cause, the ouster of the occupying invaders.

Al Qaeda declared it's intention to continue mass murdering Americans. What does that have to do with Iraq?

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq.

There is much evidence against this propaganda. "Evidence" produced by the government amounts to "indications" of "tolerance," and "indications" that he "may have even helped" "al Qaeda in Iraq. "Al Qaeda" in Iraq amounted to a local group of Islamist extremists bent on the ouster of Saddam from Iraqi Kurdistan, and the creation of an Islamic Kurdish nation. The evidence indicates that an al Qaeda affiliated terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, fell in with this group of Kurds.

The threat that Saddam presented to us was negligible. He became so weak and irrelevant in regard to any kind of weapons systems that may have even come close to harming us, that he wasn't a threat at all, especially as compared to a nation like Korea. Saddam was thoroughly contained by way of the Joint Task Force's operations, the UN sanctions, and the UN inspections.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq as regards Saddam's actual threat was grossly overkill and UNNECESSARY.

When you doublethink, anything can be true to you, ican. Especially when you're presenting "evidence" to make a case for any kind of questionable action. Powell was wrong about everything he presented. The available evidence just doesn't support the propaganda he spewed.

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed WMD's deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed mobile bio-weapons laboratories. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.

Powell propagandized the claim of a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. This was his weakest claim, and some people believed it. A lot of people did not. Given his propensity to propagate wrong information about Saddam as indicated by the examples listed above, and putting these propagandistic claims to the light of the available, un-propagandized, un-ideologized evidence--evidence presented by organizations that had no stake either way in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and evidence presented by organizations who, despite the possibility of having something to gain acknowledging Powell's propaganda, denied it--this was wrong.

Paradoxically, and quite telling of your mental operations, this is the claim to which you, ican, cling with the zealous belief of an Islamist fanatic.

One thing is Duelfer's report, another thing is basing one's support of the invasion and occupation of Iraq as NECESSARY in light of this report. Had Saddam resumed development of WMD, an invasion and occupation would not have been NECESSARY. Operations similar to Operation Desert Fox--which was phenomenally successful in accomplishing its goal at hand, which was not the destruction of al Qaeda, not the ouster of Saddam, but the destruction of WMD sites in Iraq--could have been carried out.

Similar operations could have been carried out to destroy the "al Qaeda" camps in Northern Iraq. The US government decided on an invasion and occupation of Iraq instead. The invasion and occupation of Iraq for this purpose WAS NOT NECESSARY.

Kay is a more reliable source than Powell because Kay actually went in looking for WMD in Iraq--Powell didn't--and found nothing.

For all of the "indications," and evidence self-describedly "uncertain" in its "reliability," a war of invasion and occupation was grossly superfluous and UNNECESSARY.

Saddam used the income from his corruption of the UN OFF program to build palaces and to fund weapons programs that amounted to individual regime officials using those funds for anything but weapons programs. The regime had fallen into corrupt dysfunction.

The bribery of French and Russian leaders by Saddam is irrelevant and a red herring in regard to our pretexts for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

It's well known that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian terrorists.

What the US government says about "evidence that Saddam gave hundreds of thousands--maybe even millions--of Oil-for-Food dollars to terrorists and terrorist organizations," given its propensities to propagandize this--which, in regard to Iraq, has amounted to things like "indications" "tolerance" "may even have," and outright falsities--should be taken with a grain of salt.


I agree completly with this entire statement and why shouldn't Powell be to blame. He should have checked his facts, the facts were there for him to check before he presented his false claims. I think he was just doing his duty regardless of the truth because he felt that was his duty. His answer to everything was always, "I serve at the pleasure of the President" and to me that said it all.

People keep saying that we should finish this up. Finish what up? What are we doing that needs to be finished and how will we know when we are finished? What is the result that we are after> What does a "free Iraq" look like? How do we know who the insurgents are and who the "free Iraqis' are?

At the end of the day, if there ever is one, how will the rest of the world know that the result is really what the Iraqi's want and not just what the American Administration tells us that is what they want?

If the insurgency was not so widespread to the point where it is almost hard to tell where anyone is wanting this "free Iraq" I could understand why we have to fininish this even if it kills people even though I was and still am against the war. Show me parts of Iraq where people are fighting for the US and it's coalition other than the "Iraqi interim leadership." Insurgence means rebellion, to me it looks most of the Iraqis are rebelling against the US and the ever shrinking coalition and so the Iraqis are the Insurgency and we are fighting them to free them. It makes no sense whatsoever.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:09 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Ican, you missed, or, I suspect, ignored the point. There were, according to the Marine's chart, only two instances of non-Iraqi fighters in all of the battles that took place. That would suggest to me that it is not as the administration would like us to believe which is that the insurgents are only thugs and escaped criminals.

I was wrong, you neither missed or ignored the point, you simply could not grasp it.
Laughing

Well then, it wouldn't have been the first time that I couldn't grasp someone's point. What was your point? I do indeed fail to grasp it.

I thought your point was: since the fighters (i.e., mass murderers of Iraqi civilians in the so-called Sunni Triangle) were alleged to be mostly Iraqis, the fighters were not thugs and escaped criminals.

My point was that the origins of the fighters is not the only valid factor that determines whether or not the fighters are thugs and escaped criminals. Actually their origins may be far less relevant than their behavior, especially their current behavior. They are after all, each and everyone, mass murderers of civilians, or aiders and abettors of mass murderers of civilians. I think that fact is more than adequate to qualify the fighters for thug and escaped criminal status.

But then, what do I know? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:10 am
deleted
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:46 am
Steppenwolf wrote:
I intend this post to be limited to the issue of intentionality as it relates Ican’s last post. I think the intent aspect of war is being framed in a way that makes the Iraq question seem easier than it is.

... The difference between my analysis and the above analysis is that I would conclude that the military is knowingly killing innocents to promote a stable and democratic Iraq under the guidance of the U.S., while the insurgents are purposely killing innocents to remove the U.S. and promote their own form of government (Theocracy? Some form of totalitarianism similar to Hussein’s rule? I don’t know). Thus, I reject the euphemistic claim (or at least the phrasing of that claim) that we are risking unintentional killing of civilians to prevent intentional killing.


Thank you. I agree that your recommended nomenclature is more apropriate than mine and shall henceforth employ it:
1. knowingly killing innocents to promote a stable and democratic Iraq under the guidance of the U.S.
2. purposely killing innocents to remove the U.S. and promote their own form of government

Steppenwolf wrote:
I have also omitted Ican’s qualifier “mass,” that he used to modify “killing” by insurgents but not “killing” by the U.S. I have no data that confirms that insurgents have killed more civilians than has the U.S.
I think the adjective mass is appropriate whenever more than one person is killed in a killing incident, regardless of who killed more when. However, I am now compelled to agree that the employment of your nomenclature in the context of Iraqi killings logically requires me to use mass in conjunction with both knowingly and purposely. Thus:
1. knowingly mass killing innocents to promote a stable and democratic Iraq under the guidance of the U.S.
2. purposely mass killing innocents to remove the U.S. and promote their own form of government.

Steppenwolf wrote:
Framed in this way, I still think that we should finish the job in Iraq, but it’s not an easy question of “risking unintentional killing” vs. “intentional killing.” I realize that finishing Iraq calls for knowingly killing innocents and American soldiers. We must face this demon.
I agree. I would say that last a little differently:
I realize that finishing the job in Iraq calls for the U.S. knowingly mass killing innocents and American soldiers, and purposely mass killing Iraqi fighters, in order to stop Iraqi fighters from purposely mass killing innocents and American soldiers. Said either way, I agree that it's still a demon "we must face".
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 12:17 pm
InfraBlue, since there is so much in what you wrote that I agree with as well as disagree with, I've chosen to insert my comments in bold faced underlined within your post rather than separately.


InfraBlue wrote:
There was some "al Qaeda" in a relatively small area of a region of Iraq Agree that was out of the control of Saddam Hussein Agree, Saddam wasn't in control but it was with Saddam's knowledge and tolerance and invitation. We invaded and are occupying the entire country because of a pretext based on this fact. We didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan, we killed some of them, the rest fled elsewhere Agree if the word intention is substituted for the word pretext. Also, yes, many fled Afghanistan; many fled Afghanistan for Iraq. and are continually recruiting more people throughout the world with our inadvertent help.Agree We went in to Afghanistan to get al Qaeda's number one, Osama bin Laden Disagree. We went into Afghanistan to destroy al Qaeda's ability to purposely mass kill Americans. Our adventure in Afghanistan has been an utter and miserable failure in that regard Agree, we failed to get Osama. We went in to Iraq on the pretext of getting "al Qaeda" there. Agree if the word intention is substituted for the word pretext. Our adventure in Iraq has been an utter and miserable failure thereAgree. We have not yet destroyed al Qaeda there . The insurgents against whom we are fighting are largely Iraqis bent on impelling us to get out. There are few al Qaeda there who form an amalgam fighting against a single cause, the ouster of the occupying invaders Agree. However, I would add that the amalgam you refer to are purposeful mass killers of Iraqi civilians and must be purposely mass killed to stop their mass killing of Iraqi civilians. The al Qaeda that are included in that amalgam represent the cadre for subsequently continuing their jihad against Americans and others.

Al Qaeda declared it's intention to continue mass murdering Americans. What does that have to do with IraqAl Qaeda was/is harbored in Iraq?

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq. Correction: Powell alleged Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq.

There is much evidence against this propaganda. Disagree. I've not encountered anything other than WFNA and your opinions. That's not reliable evidence. That's unreliable propaganda. "Evidence" produced by the government amounts to "indications" of "tolerance," and "indications" that he "may have even helped" "al Qaeda in Iraq. "Al Qaeda" in Iraq amounted to a local group of Islamist extremists bent on the ouster of Saddam from Iraqi Kurdistan, and the creation of an Islamic Kurdish nation. The evidence indicates that an al Qaeda affiliated terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, fell in with this group of Kurds. Disagree. The 9-11 Commission (see page 368 here, post No. 1040760, E1) alleges that the al Qaeda suffered major defeats at the hands of the Kurds. I infer that means the Kurds did not want al Qaeda there.

The threat that Saddam presented to us was negligible. He became so weak and irrelevant in regard to any kind of weapons systems that may have even come close to harming us, that he wasn't a threat at all, especially as compared to a nation like Korea. Saddam was thoroughly contained by way of the Joint Task Force's operations, the UN sanctions, and the UN inspections. Disagree. You previously based that on a NYT article alleging that David Kay alleged that Saddam was in the condition you described. I witnessed the 9-11 Commission hearings on C-Span wherein Kay first contradicted and then even retracted previous testimony he gave to the 9-11 Commission. He's an unreliable witness: that is, he's a proven propagandist.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq as regards Saddam's actual threat was grossly overkill and UNNECESSARY Disagree. Saddam's alleged thousands of munitions dumps, oil-for-food frauds, financing of terrorists, harboring of terrorists, discovery of additional terrorist camps south of Baghdad, the current purposeful mass-murder-of-civilians remnants of his regime, et cetera, mark him and his regime extremely dangerous justifying their total extermination.

I disagree with all the rest of this diatribe of yours. It amounts to you, the griddle, calling me, the pot, greasy. >>> When you doublethink, anything can be true to you, ican. Especially when you're presenting "evidence" to make a case for any kind of questionable action. Powell was wrong about everything he presented. The available evidence just doesn't support the propaganda he spewed.

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed WMD's deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.

Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed mobile bio-weapons laboratories. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.

Powell propagandized the claim of a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. This was his weakest claim, and some people believed it. A lot of people did not. Given his propensity to propagate wrong information about Saddam as indicated by the examples listed above, and putting these propagandistic claims to the light of the available, un-propagandized, un-ideologized evidence--evidence presented by organizations that had no stake either way in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and evidence presented by organizations who, despite the possibility of having something to gain acknowledging Powell's propaganda, denied it--this was wrong What organizations? Who in those organizations? When did said organizations deny it? Why should anyone believe your allegations here?.

Paradoxically, and quite telling of your mental operations, this is the claim to which you, ican, cling with the zealous belief of an Islamist fanatic.

One thing is Duelfer's report, another thing is basing one's support of the invasion and occupation of Iraq as NECESSARY in light of this report. Had Saddam resumed development of WMD, an invasion and occupation would not have been NECESSARY. Operations similar to Operation Desert Fox--which was phenomenally successful in accomplishing its goal at hand, which was not the destruction of al Qaeda, not the ouster of Saddam, but the destruction of WMD sites in Iraq--could have been carried out. Duelfer's report claimed there were no WMD in Iraq after 1991. So how could the 1998 Operation Desert Fox have accomplished "destruction of WMD sites in Iraq" without a time machine?

Similar operations could have been carried out to destroy the "al Qaeda" camps in Northern Iraq. That kind of operation didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan when Clinton tried that. Why should any rational person think it would work in Iraq? The US government decided on an invasion and occupation of Iraq instead. The invasion and occupation of Iraq for this purpose WAS NOT NECESSARY.

Kay is a more reliable source than Powell because Kay actually went in looking for WMD in Iraq--Powell didn't--and found nothing. Duelfer is a more reliable source than Kay because Duelfer went into Iraq with a team of investigators, and because no one has contradicted Duelfer to date, including Duelfer hasn't contradicted himself to date like Kay has.

For all of the "indications," and evidence self-describedly "uncertain" in its "reliability," a war of invasion and occupation was grossly superfluous and UNNECESSARY.

Saddam used the income from his corruption of the UN OFF program to build palaces and to fund weapons programs that amounted to individual regime officials using those funds for anything but weapons programs. The regime had fallen into corrupt dysfunction.

The bribery of French and Russian leaders by Saddam is irrelevant and a red herring in regard to our pretexts for the invasion and occupation of Iraq Agree. But its not irrelevant to why we could not get UN approval for invading Iraq.

It's well known that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian terrorists.

What the US government says about "evidence that Saddam gave hundreds of thousands--maybe even millions--of Oil-for-Food dollars to terrorists and terrorist organizations," given its propensities to propagandize this--which, in regard to Iraq, has amounted to things like "indications" "tolerance" "may even have waiting for a guarantee in these cases proves fatal to many," and outright falsities--should be taken with a grain of salt. Your propensity to allege propagandizing absent supporting argument is astonishing. No matter how much evidence of Saddam's danger to Americans, to Iraqis and to others has been discovered, you reject it as propaganda. Just so you are clear on this point, each and everytime you allege propaganda without evidence of same, I for one infer you are propagandizing.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 01:08 pm
revel wrote:
Ican comment are boldfaced and underline by ican. At the end of the day, if there ever is one, how will the rest of the world know that the result is really what the Iraqi's want and not just what the American Administration tells us that is what they want? Surely, the Iraqis will know! Also, what we who are there want counts too. So we will know. We want a government in Iraq that is not another Saddam-tyrany. Because if it becomes another Saddam-tyrany, the al Qaeda it will harbor will purposely mass kill American civilians. We insist on an Iraqi democracy "of the people, for the people, by the people" to minimize the risk of another tyranny happening in Iraq.

If the insurgency was not so widespread to the point where it is almost hard to tell where anyone is wanting this "free Iraq" I could understand why we have to fininish this even if it kills people even though I was and still am against the war. Show me parts of Iraq where people are fighting for the US and it's coalition other than the "Iraqi interim leadership." Insurgence means rebellion, to me it looks most of the Iraqis are rebelling against the US and the ever shrinking coalition and so the Iraqis are the Insurgency and we are fighting them to free them. It makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps it would make sense to you if you were to reject WFNA propaganda and realize that the rebellion, as you call it, is centered primarily in the Bagdad triangle. The Kurds in the north are not rebelling. Neither are the great majority of Shia in the south. It's only a minority of the Sunni in the center who are rebelling. So we are figting to free those who are not rebelling. It makes sense to me.

By the way it is only some Sunni in the center who are requesting a postponement of the January 30th elections.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 03:08 pm
revel wrote:
I agree completly with this entire statement and why shouldn't Powell be to blame. He should have checked his facts, the facts were there for him to check before he presented his false claims. I think he was just doing his duty regardless of the truth because he felt that was his duty. His answer to everything was always, "I serve at the pleasure of the President" and to me that said it all.


Except for Powell's allegation that Saddam possessed WMD, what Powell said to the UN 2/5/03 has been subsequently verified by direct observations made by our troops after our invasion of Iraq. When Powell learned after our invasion of Iraq that his WMD allegation was false, he apologized for his mistake several times.

General Franks alleged in his book:
Quote:
Colin Powell said recently that he was disappointed that some of the intelligence on Iraq’s WMD program was “inaccurate and wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading.” That of course is the nature of human intelligence. The issue is not whether the source of human intelligence was telling the truth, but whether George Tenet, Colin Powell, and President George W. Bush believed that the information was true. I believe they did. I know I did. And I do not regret my role in disarming Iraq and removing its Baathist regime.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 03:23 pm
Icam, I feel bad picking on you, but you keep saying stuff that I disagree with. However right now I don't have time to really do my best with a response right now but later I will get to it as I will have more free time.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 03:34 pm
revel wrote:
Icam, I feel bad picking on you, but you keep saying stuff that I disagree with. ...
Please don't feel bad picking on me. I can handle it quite comfortably. Do feel bad for disagreeing with me when I'm right. That is annoying, but it's merely the natural burden we well informed must carry! :wink:
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:33 pm
Ican I found an article while I was in the middle of reading things that jumped out at me because it talked about the very things were talking about.

From New Nation Online Edition

Front Page
US media uncover Bush administration's managing the flow of news from Iraq
By New York Tribune
Dec 3, 2004, 11:57



Allawi's recent visit to the United States was part of an intensive campaign by the Bush administration to manage the flow of news out of Iraq. As a matter of policy, any journalist wanting to visit the Green Zone, had to be escorted at all times; one could not simply wander around and chat with people in bars and cafés, says the latest issue of the New York Review.

The vast world of civilian contractors-of Halliburton's Kellogg, Brown & Root, of Bechtel, and of all the other private companies responsible for rebuilding Iraq-was completely off-limits; employees of these companies were informed that they would be fired if they were caught talking to the press. During the days of the Coalition Provisional Authority, its administrator, L. Paul Bremer, and the top military commander, Ricardo Sanchez, gave very few interviews to US correspondents in Baghdad.

They did, however, speak often via satellite with small newspapers and local TV stations, which were seen as more open and sympathetic. "The administration has been extremely successful in going around the filters, of getting their message directly to the American people without giving interviews to the Baghdad press corps," one correspondent said.

Three top US newspapers-The New York Times, The Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times- seemed driven by a sense that they had somehow let down their readers during the run-up to the war, that they had not sufficiently scrutinized the administration's case for war, and they now seemed determined to make up for it. The New York Times, for one, maintained a staff of forty to fifty people in Baghdad, including four or five reporters plus assorted drivers, housekeepers, security guards, and "fixers," those invaluable interpreter/journalists who help visiting reporters understand who's who, arrange interviews, and make sense of it all. With more and more of the country off-limits to Western reporters, these fixers were increasingly sent out into the field to find out what was going on, and some emerged as enterprising reporters in their own right.

In early October, The New York Times's Edward Wong, accompanied by a fixer and a photographer, spent a day being guided through the streets of Baghdad's Sadr City by a mid-level aide to Moqtada al-Sadr. At the time, US warplanes were pounding the district on a nightly basis, but Wong found that the strikes were not having their intended effect. "Loyalty to [Sadr] burns fierce here" in Sadr City, "a vast slum of 2.2 million people, despite frequent American raids and almost nightly airstrikes," he wrote on October 3. "The American military has stepped up its campaign to rout the Mahdi Army, Mr. Sadr's militia, on its home turf here, to drive him to the bargaining table. But it is often impossible here to distinguish between civilians and fighters."

After Prime Minister Allawi asserted that most of Iraq was safe, The Washington Post's Rajiv Chandrasekaran-seeking a statistical measure- got hold of the daily security reports of Kroll, a private firm working for the US government. These reports showed that Iraq was suffering an average of seventy attacks a day by insurgents, up from the forty to fifty that had occurred before the handover of political authority in late June. What is more, the reports showed, the attacks were occurring not only in the Sunni Triangle but in every province of Iraq. "In number and scope," Chandrasekaran wrote on the Post's front page, the attacks compiled in the Kroll reports suggest a broad and intensifying campaign of insurgent violence that contrasts sharply with assessments by Bush administration officials and Iraq's interim prime minister that the instability is contained [in] small pockets of the country.

In the face of Bush administration efforts to portray the Iraqi insurgency as made up exclusively of foreign fighters led by the Jordanian-born terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, several US news organizations offered a more nuanced look. The AP's Jim Krane, for instance, reported in early October that the insurgents seemed to consist of four main groups, including not only "hardcore fighters" aligned with Zarqawi but also conservative Iraqis seeking to install an Islamic theocracy, Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, and "Iraqi nationalists fighting to reclaim secular power lost when Saddam Hussein was deposed in April 2003." This last group, Krane wrote, was the largest. In other US wars, he noted, "the enemy was clear." In Iraq, "the disorganized insurgency has no single commander, no political wing and no dominant group." As a result, "US troops can't settle on a single approach" to the fighting.

In Washington, too, the press uncovered many significant stories about US policy in Iraq. In one five-day period (October 22 to October 26), The Washington Post's front page featured stories on

a poll showing that US-backed political figures were losing ground to religious leaders; how the war in Iraq had diverted energy and attention from the fight against al-Qaeda; how the CIA was secretly moving detainees out of Iraq-a "serious breach" of the Geneva Conventions; and administration plans to ask for an additional $70 billion to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The biggest bombshell, though, came on October 25, when the Times, in a two-column story on its front page, reported that nearly 380 tons of high-grade explosives had disappeared from a bunker south of Baghdad, and that this had likely occurred after the US invasion. The story was quickly seized on by John Kerry, who for the remaining days of the campaign cited it as further evidence of the administration's mishandling of Iraq. On the day before the election, CNN analyst William Schneider said that the missing-explosives story seemed to be an "important" factor in a last-minute turning of the polls away from Bush.


© Copyright 2003 by ittefaq.com


http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_14312.shtml

It was more than Powell claims of WMD that were proven false, but I don't feel like going there as others have already went there and you just ignore what you want. I don't know whether Powell believed what he said or it not, but I do know if he didn't; he should have because the information was out there.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:52 pm
Quote:
In early October, The New York Times's Edward Wong, accompanied by a fixer and a photographer, spent a day being guided through the streets of Baghdad's Sadr City by a mid-level aide to Moqtada al-Sadr. At the time, US warplanes were pounding the district on a nightly basis, but Wong found that the strikes were not having their intended effect. "Loyalty to [Sadr] burns fierce here" in Sadr City, "a vast slum of 2.2 million people, despite frequent American raids and almost nightly airstrikes," he wrote on October 3. "The American military has stepped up its campaign to rout the Mahdi Army, Mr. Sadr's militia, on its home turf here, to drive him to the bargaining table. But it is often impossible here to distinguish between civilians and fighters."


Maybe Mr. Wong should go back to Sadr City. Or perhaps there's more to the story...

Baghdad's Sadr City Embraces Reconstruction
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 08:16 am
just wonders, it appears that you are right; the sadr city is embracing the reconstruction and are looking foward to the elections because they see it as a long overdue chance for them to be in power. The Sunni's are not looking foward to elections becasue they know that the Shiite's outnumber them and will more likely win if the elections are run fairly which is why they are still fighting so much. It is this anticipation of power that has stoped the Shiite's from being part of the insurgents like they were in October.

One thing it seems all agree on is their feelings towards Americans. The promises that we made to them were not kept but they are so excited by the elections that it seems that they don't care.

It seems to me that we are sitting on a power keg if the elections don't go as hoped. But if they do go as hoped and Shiite's get in power, do you imagine that they will be puppets to the US?
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 09:20 am
Revel - I don't pretend to have all the answers (or any of them for that matter) as to what will or will not happen in post-election Iraq. I only know what I hope for.

I only post here to offer another point of view, usually at odds with the defeatist attitude that nothing good will ever come of the current situation in Iraq.

I have to wonder, though, if A2K had been around a couple of decades ago and we were having this discussion on Ukraine instead, would we have the same detractors pontificating the same gloom and doom that that country would also never see a day of democracy.

Call me a hopeless dreamer, but I'm counting on those brave souls in both countries to stay the course and continue the struggle. Deep down, I think they know it's worth it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 11:01 am
It would if anyone other than the Bush administration was in charge. But that's just my opinion because I think they are corrupt and nothing good can come from them because they are selfish greedy controlling people in my opinion. It seems that most of the Iraqi's share that opinion based on most new articles regardless if they are fighting the US or not.

I found another article of facing facts of just how dirty we are in Iraq.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041204/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/seals_prisoner_photos


AP: Navy Probes New Iraq Prisoner Photos

8 minutes ago

By SETH HETTENA, Associated Press Writer

CORONADO, Calif. - The U.S. military has launched a criminal investigation into photographs that appear to show Navy SEALs in Iraq (news - web sites) sitting on hooded and handcuffed detainees, and photos of what appear to be bloodied prisoners, one with a gun to his head.


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041204/lthumb.la11712040201.seals_prisoner_photos_la117.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041203/lthumb.la11112032329.seals_prisoner_photos_la111.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041203/lthumb.la10312032222.seals_prisoner_photos_la103.jpg

I guess people can blind themselves and have positives outlooks if they want to.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 11:30 am
Revel - it surprises me not that you'd come back with those particular links, given your "opinions". I'd actually already read them (or similar ones), so it's not new "news" to me.

It neither disturbs me nor surprises me that some think "most of the world despises George Bush and the United States". I'm realistic enough to consider just who the "world" is.

So, you can just sit in your own little hate-filled and paranoid "world", reading and watching Al Jazeera, and doing your darndest to dig up everything negative and defeatist imaginable since that seems to be your mission. That you are more disturbed by what you just linked, rather than the torture chambers, death houses, rape rooms, beheadings of women and innocent bystanders speaks volumes to me. (You won't find any of THAT aired on Al Jazeera).

But please know that I am as indifferent to you and your defeatist attitude as I am indifferent to the "world" that supposedly hates me and this country. Get a clue. Many of us don't care that they hate us. It in no way tells us that we're wrong.

Your last sentence made me laugh Smile If I'm given a choice between a positive outlook and a "hate-filled" existence, I'll go for the former every time. Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 12:04 pm
JustWonders wrote:
If I'm given a choice between a positive outlook and a "hate-filled" existence, I'll go for the former every time. Smile


Yea, verily!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 01:23 pm
revel wrote:
Ican ... ... you just ignore what you want.


Yes, I ignore what I want to ignore. I ignore what I think deserves ignoring. That is in deed what I want to ignore.

It's been my experience that accomplishment of the good things that benefit self and the general welfare are not accomplished by plaintful pontificators, pessimists, or paranoids. They are accomplished by optimists devoted to investing in their own best dreams and in the best dreams of others. Essentially, they bet their lives on the best that is in themselves and the best that is in others.

It is easy to lose in this life. Witness that too many do. For example, they choose to accomodate the nearest wall, lay down before it and die. It is very difficult to accomplish good things, but that is made easier by disassembling, penetrating and/or circumventing walls, and living really living while you're doing it.

As old Patrick Henry asked in the Spring of 1775: "What would [you] have?"
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 02:55 pm
Personally JW I think you seem more hate filled than I do even though you have a postive delusional attitude about Iraq and the administration in general.

Those links were from yahoo, it just came out today. The reason that it is new is because of the way it came out. A wife a navy seal guy was just simply putting pictures that her husband brought home from Iraq on the internet and now there is an investigation because in the pictures the soldiers were torturing detainees. The reason that is important is because it was not in the aba whatever prison so that means that the abuse of prisoners was more widespread than the military people made out.

Also the fact that they were not doing those kinds of things in secret bothers me because that means it must be commonplace which puts another lie to the long list of lies that the top leaders of the military told during the prisoner abuse scandal.

Do you believe that because others do things wrong that anything we do is therefore right? Do you think we just have free reign to do anything at all as long as it does not seem as barbaric as beheading people?

Personally people like you make me sad because you are so arrogant that you think we can do no wrong or if it is wrong it does not count because it is not as wrong as what others do.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 03:19 pm
It really doesn't matter how many negative reports can be published in the media. None of the higher ups have been penalized in any way, and only the lower ranking enlisted are paying the price. humbug!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 04:28 pm
Quote:
Why does my mind keep going back to the Weinberger/Powell doctrine, which the current civilian leadership in the Pentagon declared dead and gone while they were doing their victory laps and praising their own strategy of smaller, faster, deadlier in the field of military affairs?
That doctrine, dating to when Caspar Weinberger was defense secretary and Colin Powell was his military aid, said you only go to war when you have exhausted all other options; that you go to war with everything and everyone you need, not incrementally; that you clearly define your objectives; and that your military leaves after winning the war.
We now face the plain fact that the insurgency is growing. A year ago the enemy was able to mount 15 to 20 attacks a day in Iraq. Recently that number has escalated to near 150 attacks per day - attacks that now include daily car bombings of our convoys and occasional mortar and rocket attacks in the heart of Baghdad.
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/10312568.htm
0 Replies
 
 

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