There was some "al Qaeda" in a relatively small area of a region of Iraq that was out of the control of Saddam Hussein. We invaded and are occupying the entire country because of a pretext based on this fact. We didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan, we killed some of them, the rest fled elsewhere and are continually recruiting more people throughout the world with our inadvertent help. We went in to Afghanistan to get al Qaeda's number one, Osama bin Laden. Our adventure in Afghanistan has been an utter and miserable failure in that regard. We went in to Iraq on the pretext of getting "al Qaeda" there. Our adventure in Iraq has been an utter and miserable failure there. The insurgents against whom we are fighting are largely Iraqis bent on impelling us to get out. There are few al Qaeda there who form an amalgam fighting against a single cause, the ouster of the occupying invaders.
Al Qaeda declared it's intention to continue mass murdering Americans. What does that have to do with Iraq?
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq.
There is much evidence against this propaganda. "Evidence" produced by the government amounts to "indications" of "tolerance," and "indications" that he "may have even helped" "al Qaeda in Iraq. "Al Qaeda" in Iraq amounted to a local group of Islamist extremists bent on the ouster of Saddam from Iraqi Kurdistan, and the creation of an Islamic Kurdish nation. The evidence indicates that an al Qaeda affiliated terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, fell in with this group of Kurds.
The threat that Saddam presented to us was negligible. He became so weak and irrelevant in regard to any kind of weapons systems that may have even come close to harming us, that he wasn't a threat at all, especially as compared to a nation like Korea. Saddam was thoroughly contained by way of the Joint Task Force's operations, the UN sanctions, and the UN inspections.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq as regards Saddam's actual threat was grossly overkill and UNNECESSARY.
When you doublethink, anything can be true to you, ican. Especially when you're presenting "evidence" to make a case for any kind of questionable action. Powell was wrong about everything he presented. The available evidence just doesn't support the propaganda he spewed.
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed WMD's deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed mobile bio-weapons laboratories. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.
Powell propagandized the claim of a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. This was his weakest claim, and some people believed it. A lot of people did not. Given his propensity to propagate wrong information about Saddam as indicated by the examples listed above, and putting these propagandistic claims to the light of the available, un-propagandized, un-ideologized evidence--evidence presented by organizations that had no stake either way in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and evidence presented by organizations who, despite the possibility of having something to gain acknowledging Powell's propaganda, denied it--this was wrong.
Paradoxically, and quite telling of your mental operations, this is the claim to which you, ican, cling with the zealous belief of an Islamist fanatic.
One thing is Duelfer's report, another thing is basing one's support of the invasion and occupation of Iraq as NECESSARY in light of this report. Had Saddam resumed development of WMD, an invasion and occupation would not have been NECESSARY. Operations similar to Operation Desert Fox--which was phenomenally successful in accomplishing its goal at hand, which was not the destruction of al Qaeda, not the ouster of Saddam, but the destruction of WMD sites in Iraq--could have been carried out.
Similar operations could have been carried out to destroy the "al Qaeda" camps in Northern Iraq. The US government decided on an invasion and occupation of Iraq instead. The invasion and occupation of Iraq for this purpose WAS NOT NECESSARY.
Kay is a more reliable source than Powell because Kay actually went in looking for WMD in Iraq--Powell didn't--and found nothing.
For all of the "indications," and evidence self-describedly "uncertain" in its "reliability," a war of invasion and occupation was grossly superfluous and UNNECESSARY.
Saddam used the income from his corruption of the UN OFF program to build palaces and to fund weapons programs that amounted to individual regime officials using those funds for anything but weapons programs. The regime had fallen into corrupt dysfunction.
The bribery of French and Russian leaders by Saddam is irrelevant and a red herring in regard to our pretexts for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
It's well known that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian terrorists.
What the US government says about "evidence that Saddam gave hundreds of thousands--maybe even millions--of Oil-for-Food dollars to terrorists and terrorist organizations," given its propensities to propagandize this--which, in regard to Iraq, has amounted to things like "indications" "tolerance" "may even have," and outright falsities--should be taken with a grain of salt.
Gelisgesti wrote:Ican, you missed, or, I suspect, ignored the point. There were, according to the Marine's chart, only two instances of non-Iraqi fighters in all of the battles that took place. That would suggest to me that it is not as the administration would like us to believe which is that the insurgents are only thugs and escaped criminals.
I was wrong, you neither missed or ignored the point, you simply could not grasp it.
I intend this post to be limited to the issue of intentionality as it relates Ican’s last post. I think the intent aspect of war is being framed in a way that makes the Iraq question seem easier than it is.
... The difference between my analysis and the above analysis is that I would conclude that the military is knowingly killing innocents to promote a stable and democratic Iraq under the guidance of the U.S., while the insurgents are purposely killing innocents to remove the U.S. and promote their own form of government (Theocracy? Some form of totalitarianism similar to Hussein’s rule? I don’t know). Thus, I reject the euphemistic claim (or at least the phrasing of that claim) that we are risking unintentional killing of civilians to prevent intentional killing.
I have also omitted Ican’s qualifier “mass,” that he used to modify “killing” by insurgents but not “killing” by the U.S. I have no data that confirms that insurgents have killed more civilians than has the U.S.
Framed in this way, I still think that we should finish the job in Iraq, but it’s not an easy question of “risking unintentional killing” vs. “intentional killing.” I realize that finishing Iraq calls for knowingly killing innocents and American soldiers. We must face this demon.
There was some "al Qaeda" in a relatively small area of a region of Iraq Agree that was out of the control of Saddam Hussein Agree, Saddam wasn't in control but it was with Saddam's knowledge and tolerance and invitation. We invaded and are occupying the entire country because of a pretext based on this fact. We didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan, we killed some of them, the rest fled elsewhere Agree if the word intention is substituted for the word pretext. Also, yes, many fled Afghanistan; many fled Afghanistan for Iraq. and are continually recruiting more people throughout the world with our inadvertent help.Agree We went in to Afghanistan to get al Qaeda's number one, Osama bin Laden Disagree. We went into Afghanistan to destroy al Qaeda's ability to purposely mass kill Americans. Our adventure in Afghanistan has been an utter and miserable failure in that regard Agree, we failed to get Osama. We went in to Iraq on the pretext of getting "al Qaeda" there. Agree if the word intention is substituted for the word pretext. Our adventure in Iraq has been an utter and miserable failure thereAgree. We have not yet destroyed al Qaeda there . The insurgents against whom we are fighting are largely Iraqis bent on impelling us to get out. There are few al Qaeda there who form an amalgam fighting against a single cause, the ouster of the occupying invaders Agree. However, I would add that the amalgam you refer to are purposeful mass killers of Iraqi civilians and must be purposely mass killed to stop their mass killing of Iraqi civilians. The al Qaeda that are included in that amalgam represent the cadre for subsequently continuing their jihad against Americans and others.
Al Qaeda declared it's intention to continue mass murdering Americans. What does that have to do with IraqAl Qaeda was/is harbored in Iraq?
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq. Correction: Powell alleged Saddam was harboring al Qaeda in Iraq.
There is much evidence against this propaganda. Disagree. I've not encountered anything other than WFNA and your opinions. That's not reliable evidence. That's unreliable propaganda. "Evidence" produced by the government amounts to "indications" of "tolerance," and "indications" that he "may have even helped" "al Qaeda in Iraq. "Al Qaeda" in Iraq amounted to a local group of Islamist extremists bent on the ouster of Saddam from Iraqi Kurdistan, and the creation of an Islamic Kurdish nation. The evidence indicates that an al Qaeda affiliated terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, fell in with this group of Kurds. Disagree. The 9-11 Commission (see page 368 here, post No. 1040760, E1) alleges that the al Qaeda suffered major defeats at the hands of the Kurds. I infer that means the Kurds did not want al Qaeda there.
The threat that Saddam presented to us was negligible. He became so weak and irrelevant in regard to any kind of weapons systems that may have even come close to harming us, that he wasn't a threat at all, especially as compared to a nation like Korea. Saddam was thoroughly contained by way of the Joint Task Force's operations, the UN sanctions, and the UN inspections. Disagree. You previously based that on a NYT article alleging that David Kay alleged that Saddam was in the condition you described. I witnessed the 9-11 Commission hearings on C-Span wherein Kay first contradicted and then even retracted previous testimony he gave to the 9-11 Commission. He's an unreliable witness: that is, he's a proven propagandist.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq as regards Saddam's actual threat was grossly overkill and UNNECESSARY Disagree. Saddam's alleged thousands of munitions dumps, oil-for-food frauds, financing of terrorists, harboring of terrorists, discovery of additional terrorist camps south of Baghdad, the current purposeful mass-murder-of-civilians remnants of his regime, et cetera, mark him and his regime extremely dangerous justifying their total extermination.
I disagree with all the rest of this diatribe of yours. It amounts to you, the griddle, calling me, the pot, greasy. >>> When you doublethink, anything can be true to you, ican. Especially when you're presenting "evidence" to make a case for any kind of questionable action. Powell was wrong about everything he presented. The available evidence just doesn't support the propaganda he spewed.
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed WMD's deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.
Powell propagandized the claim that Saddam possessed mobile bio-weapons laboratories. A lot of people believed this. This was wrong.
Powell propagandized the claim of a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. This was his weakest claim, and some people believed it. A lot of people did not. Given his propensity to propagate wrong information about Saddam as indicated by the examples listed above, and putting these propagandistic claims to the light of the available, un-propagandized, un-ideologized evidence--evidence presented by organizations that had no stake either way in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and evidence presented by organizations who, despite the possibility of having something to gain acknowledging Powell's propaganda, denied it--this was wrong What organizations? Who in those organizations? When did said organizations deny it? Why should anyone believe your allegations here?.
Paradoxically, and quite telling of your mental operations, this is the claim to which you, ican, cling with the zealous belief of an Islamist fanatic.
One thing is Duelfer's report, another thing is basing one's support of the invasion and occupation of Iraq as NECESSARY in light of this report. Had Saddam resumed development of WMD, an invasion and occupation would not have been NECESSARY. Operations similar to Operation Desert Fox--which was phenomenally successful in accomplishing its goal at hand, which was not the destruction of al Qaeda, not the ouster of Saddam, but the destruction of WMD sites in Iraq--could have been carried out. Duelfer's report claimed there were no WMD in Iraq after 1991. So how could the 1998 Operation Desert Fox have accomplished "destruction of WMD sites in Iraq" without a time machine?
Similar operations could have been carried out to destroy the "al Qaeda" camps in Northern Iraq. That kind of operation didn't destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan when Clinton tried that. Why should any rational person think it would work in Iraq? The US government decided on an invasion and occupation of Iraq instead. The invasion and occupation of Iraq for this purpose WAS NOT NECESSARY.
Kay is a more reliable source than Powell because Kay actually went in looking for WMD in Iraq--Powell didn't--and found nothing. Duelfer is a more reliable source than Kay because Duelfer went into Iraq with a team of investigators, and because no one has contradicted Duelfer to date, including Duelfer hasn't contradicted himself to date like Kay has.
For all of the "indications," and evidence self-describedly "uncertain" in its "reliability," a war of invasion and occupation was grossly superfluous and UNNECESSARY.
Saddam used the income from his corruption of the UN OFF program to build palaces and to fund weapons programs that amounted to individual regime officials using those funds for anything but weapons programs. The regime had fallen into corrupt dysfunction.
The bribery of French and Russian leaders by Saddam is irrelevant and a red herring in regard to our pretexts for the invasion and occupation of Iraq Agree. But its not irrelevant to why we could not get UN approval for invading Iraq.
It's well known that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian terrorists.
What the US government says about "evidence that Saddam gave hundreds of thousands--maybe even millions--of Oil-for-Food dollars to terrorists and terrorist organizations," given its propensities to propagandize this--which, in regard to Iraq, has amounted to things like "indications" "tolerance" "may even have waiting for a guarantee in these cases proves fatal to many," and outright falsities--should be taken with a grain of salt. Your propensity to allege propagandizing absent supporting argument is astonishing. No matter how much evidence of Saddam's danger to Americans, to Iraqis and to others has been discovered, you reject it as propaganda. Just so you are clear on this point, each and everytime you allege propaganda without evidence of same, I for one infer you are propagandizing.
Ican comment are boldfaced and underline by ican. At the end of the day, if there ever is one, how will the rest of the world know that the result is really what the Iraqi's want and not just what the American Administration tells us that is what they want? Surely, the Iraqis will know! Also, what we who are there want counts too. So we will know. We want a government in Iraq that is not another Saddam-tyrany. Because if it becomes another Saddam-tyrany, the al Qaeda it will harbor will purposely mass kill American civilians. We insist on an Iraqi democracy "of the people, for the people, by the people" to minimize the risk of another tyranny happening in Iraq.
If the insurgency was not so widespread to the point where it is almost hard to tell where anyone is wanting this "free Iraq" I could understand why we have to fininish this even if it kills people even though I was and still am against the war. Show me parts of Iraq where people are fighting for the US and it's coalition other than the "Iraqi interim leadership." Insurgence means rebellion, to me it looks most of the Iraqis are rebelling against the US and the ever shrinking coalition and so the Iraqis are the Insurgency and we are fighting them to free them. It makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps it would make sense to you if you were to reject WFNA propaganda and realize that the rebellion, as you call it, is centered primarily in the Bagdad triangle. The Kurds in the north are not rebelling. Neither are the great majority of Shia in the south. It's only a minority of the Sunni in the center who are rebelling. So we are figting to free those who are not rebelling. It makes sense to me.
By the way it is only some Sunni in the center who are requesting a postponement of the January 30th elections.
I agree completly with this entire statement and why shouldn't Powell be to blame. He should have checked his facts, the facts were there for him to check before he presented his false claims. I think he was just doing his duty regardless of the truth because he felt that was his duty. His answer to everything was always, "I serve at the pleasure of the President" and to me that said it all.
Colin Powell said recently that he was disappointed that some of the intelligence on Iraq’s WMD program was “inaccurate and wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading.” That of course is the nature of human intelligence. The issue is not whether the source of human intelligence was telling the truth, but whether George Tenet, Colin Powell, and President George W. Bush believed that the information was true. I believe they did. I know I did. And I do not regret my role in disarming Iraq and removing its Baathist regime.
Icam, I feel bad picking on you, but you keep saying stuff that I disagree with. ...
In early October, The New York Times's Edward Wong, accompanied by a fixer and a photographer, spent a day being guided through the streets of Baghdad's Sadr City by a mid-level aide to Moqtada al-Sadr. At the time, US warplanes were pounding the district on a nightly basis, but Wong found that the strikes were not having their intended effect. "Loyalty to [Sadr] burns fierce here" in Sadr City, "a vast slum of 2.2 million people, despite frequent American raids and almost nightly airstrikes," he wrote on October 3. "The American military has stepped up its campaign to rout the Mahdi Army, Mr. Sadr's militia, on its home turf here, to drive him to the bargaining table. But it is often impossible here to distinguish between civilians and fighters."
If I'm given a choice between a positive outlook and a "hate-filled" existence, I'll go for the former every time.
Ican ... ... you just ignore what you want.
Why does my mind keep going back to the Weinberger/Powell doctrine, which the current civilian leadership in the Pentagon declared dead and gone while they were doing their victory laps and praising their own strategy of smaller, faster, deadlier in the field of military affairs?
That doctrine, dating to when Caspar Weinberger was defense secretary and Colin Powell was his military aid, said you only go to war when you have exhausted all other options; that you go to war with everything and everyone you need, not incrementally; that you clearly define your objectives; and that your military leaves after winning the war.
We now face the plain fact that the insurgency is growing. A year ago the enemy was able to mount 15 to 20 attacks a day in Iraq. Recently that number has escalated to near 150 attacks per day - attacks that now include daily car bombings of our convoys and occasional mortar and rocket attacks in the heart of Baghdad.