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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 01:59 am
mesquite wrote:
OCCOM BILL,
Can you help me understand how the action going on in Fallujah works toward helping those 5 million little girls?
No, I don't think I can. Mostly because you don't want to understand it. I doubt if anyone would have been able to help you understand the incremental importance of the battle of Normandy... or Gettysburg... or any other either. But I'll give it a quick shot. :wink:

Prerequisite understanding:
In war, unavoidably, bad things happen to good people.
In war, unavoidably, people die.
In war, often times things get damaged or destroyed.
In war, often times civilians, of all ages, suffer, too.

These things happen in war. I think that's why they say "War is Hell." However, sometimes even worse things happen if you do not bring war. So, it's a good idea to measure how much people will suffer if you do or if you don't bring War. Not just if you do.Idea

A few years ago, Bill Clinton couldn't stomach the possibility that a recommended action could cause hundreds of thousands of Koreans to die, so he chose inaction. Since then, Millions of Koreans have died as a direct result of his inaction.

In the current conflict; we will use sufficient force to bring self-representation to people who've never had it, at the cost of some ugly war goings on... or we will condemn 5 million little girls to what is essentially slavery. That's what hangs in the balance here. Will our war losses be worse than condemning those 5 million little girls? I think not.

If Iraq's current averages continue; 20 years from now they will have created 11 million more little girls... (Each of them will be worth fighting for, too, btw). Meanwhile, there is little debate about what will happen in Iraq if we cut and run now. Now, I know you're worried about the growing number of civilian casualties and water towers and whatnot, but I urge you to look at the bigger picture. Idea
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:15 am
Quote:
Western-Style Social Life Disappears in Iraq

BY BORZOU DARAGAHI
©2004 Newhouse News Service


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- It is Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting and mourning in honor of the prophet Muhammad, in a year when Iraq's troubles have driven more of its people toward faithfulness.

Numbed by constant violence and cowed into piety by a religious wave unleashed along with Saddam Hussein's downfall, the lives of Iraq's decadent and fun-loving have become increasingly drab, the country's cheap thrills increasingly hidden and rare.

Liquor stores have closed. Amusement parks shut down early. The movie theaters showing soft-porn films along Rashid Street have closed, at least for Ramadan. No one goes out on dates.

Observant men shun short-sleeved shirts and even modern women don modest headscarves. The muezzins call out prayers late into the night as Iraqis focus their thoughts on the spiritual.

"There are no parties," says Hassanein Ibrahim, 21, a student at the Baghdad Technology Institute. "For fun, I watch television or listen to heavy metal music."

Ibrahim, a well-heeled young man thumbing through Metallica and Slayer titles at the Radio One record store, says his girlfriend dumped him about a year ago, when her parents arranged a marriage for her. He has been unable to find a replacement.

"Their parents don't let them go out," he says.

Young women complain that the security troubles -- kidnappings, car bombings -- have ended the good times. Gone are the days when Nada Helen, a 30-year-old secretary at a Baghdad bank, and her girlfriends would meet up with a group of guys on payday and splurge on food and merriment.

"My only fun is surfing the Internet at home, running up the phone bill," she says. "Now, the Internet is the only way out."

After classes, Mohammad Kanan al-Jumeili, a biology student at Mustansiriya University, hangs out at a coffee shop and plays dominos. At about midnight, the 22-year-old meets a friend who operates a cigarette and soda stand outside Yarmouk Hospital.

Together they view the nightly parade of ambulances, soldiers and cops. "It's like watching al Jazeera but it's real," he says.

Once, he and his friends attempted to pick up two prostitutes from the Dora neighborhood. They began driving them to the home of one of Jumeili's friends, whose parents were out of town, when they were stopped by police.

The police, quickly aware of what was going on, threatened to arrest them, but relented when an officer realized one of the young men was an acquaintance.

"The one time the police do their job is when we wanted to have a good time," Jumeili says.

Many Iraqis say their countrymen are moving toward a strict interpretation of Islam because of the U.S. military occupation, which many Iraqis view as an attack on their faith.

An Iraqi journalist tells the story of Abdullah al-Dulaymi, 45, a hard-drinking, womanizing blacksmith who had nothing to do with the resistance until April 13, when an American bomb fell on his house, killing his wife and children.

Three days later he had sworn off the bottle for good and found religion. He organized a group of fighters, mostly relatives and friends, and began launching attacks on U.S. forces.

He's now a leader of a group in Fallujah that calls itself the Noori Jihadi regiment, easily recognizable as the clean-shaven, well-groomed resistance fighter who always wears a splash of cologne, according to the Fallujah-based Iraqi journalist, who asked that his name not be published for his own security.

Iraqis who enjoy indulging themselves find they're becoming a minority, as more and more of their carousing pals defect to religion. Haydar Jawad and his best friend Fallah Ismail Jassem used to sit around, get drunk and listen to the music of Um Kalthoum, the Egyptian pop legend.

"We were close friends for a long time," says Jawad, a 45-year-old antiques merchant. "We drank together. We had fun together."

But shortly before the U.S. invasion, Jassem began turning to God, praying five times a day and reading religious tracts.

Now he has a new idol.

"Every 100 years comes a man to reinvigorate Islam," says Jassem, a handsome 31-year-old also in the antiques business. "This man is Osama bin Laden."

Jawad, standing next to his old friend in a meeting arranged by a reporter, shakes his head.

"When I stop by his house, his father says I'm no longer to come around and that I'm no longer Jassem's friend," Jawad says. "I'm shattered."

In an alleyway behind discrete brown metal gates along a busy commercial street in Baghdad is a colorful garden of earthly delights: a clandestine liquor store.

It is well stocked with bottles of Jack Daniels, Foster's beer, wines from Lebanon, and it is brimming with customers paying cash and walking out with paper bags full of alcohol.

The cashier is a jovial 63-year-old who asks that just his nickname, Abu Wissam, be published.

"We drink," he says, "we drink every day. It's a normal thing. But we don't consider it a good time anymore, because our country is in pain. Every time I try to enjoy myself and have a drink an explosion goes off."

Abu Wissam says he is bitter about the changes he sees taking place all around Iraq, the shift toward religion and violence.

He sang recently at a party, a gathering of 25 of Baghdad's artists and intellectuals. Just as everyone began singing along, an explosion went off, shaking the windows and sending the guests scurrying home.

"I have grown to hate weapons and hating all military people," he says. "The world is shaping up as a battle between literary and the military people. I hate the men of war. All of our beautiful youth has been lost because of the men of war."

Nov. 10, 2004


(Borzou Daragahi wrote this article for The Star-Ledger of Newark, N.J. He can be contacted at [email protected].)
Source
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:17 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Well Aris: it is clear where your loyalties lie.

If you don't understand what makes the questions valid, it isn't worth my time to explain it to you.

Ah yes, the usual "if-I-can't-validate-my-claims-it-isn't-worth-my-time-to-explain-them-to-you" tactic. Boy, talk about ducking and running.
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Your stance condones crimes against humanity

You're obviously on a defensive rant, but please, don't let me stop you. Explain to me how my "stance" condones crimes against humanity.
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:27 am
McGentrix wrote:
We are offering that and those "Islaamists" do not want to allow it because they know it will end their power.

What you have been offering them for the past 13 years is the annihilation of their nation, plundering of their national resources by Big Oil et al, and manipulation of their affairs that are none of your business to begin with.

You've effectively done this in all corners of the world, from Indonesia to Iraq and from the Phillipines and Grenada to Vietnam. You've consistently installed and supported dictators that were friendly to your imperialistic ways throughout your nation's history; military and economic conquest by your bloodthirsty elite is always the norm so spare me the drivel about what you are"offering" to those "Islaamists".
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:36 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:

That is perhaps the most disgusting display of support for murderous bastards I have ever seen.

Bill, as Cycloptichorn correctly pointed out, I was describing their mentality, not supporting it, but it seems that when you converse, you do not give someone your full attention because you are too busy listening to ideas and preconceptions that are running around in your mind at the same time.

Stop trying to judge why I am saying something and focus on what I am saying instead.
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:57 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
There's a difference between "understanding the mind and goals of the enemy," and being an apologist for the terrorists who are beheading innocent people for political gain.


It's a difference of interpretation in this case.

Though I'm not surprised that many conservatives see it this way; such a black-and-white outlook on things invariably leads to criticism of those who would dare suggest that we have something to learn from studying the enemy....

Cycloptichorn

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I would like to ask Ticomaya just exactly who does he mean is the "enemy"? Is it the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis that the US has murdered? Is it their families, brethren and brothers that are defending their nation from the occupation?
gav wrote:
Yous should be less concerned with what the "terrorists" are doing for political gain and more concerned with the atrocities YOUR government are carrying out in YOUR name for political gain.

Well said. Most of the rest of the world sees the US as the terrorists. It sure as heck has been terrorizing and oppressing Iraqis, hasn't it. The US had one 9/11 (3,000 deaths) and then it went and delivered 30 odd 9/11s (over 100,000 deaths to date) to innocent Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 03:05 am
ican711nm wrote:
The al Qaeda, Iraqi insurgents, Iranian invaders, and Syrian invaders are knowingly and willingly murdering Iraqi civilians in order to prevent those civilians from having the government they want.

We are killing al Qaeda, Iraqi insurgents, Iranian invaders, and Syrian invaders in order to stop them from murdering Iraqi civilians.

We are unintentionally killing Iraqi civilians in our effort to stop al Qaeda, Iraqi insurgents, Iranian invaders, and Syrian invaders from murdering Iraqi citizens, because we don't know how to stop al Qaeda, Iraqi insurgents, Iranian invaders, and Syrian invaders from murdering Iraqi citizens without unintentionally killing Iraqi civilians.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA

"We are unintentionally killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people"

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage43/17.gif

I'm sorry for laughing, but that was priceless http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage28/11.gif
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 03:17 am
Aris wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Well Aris: it is clear where your loyalties lie.

If you don't understand what makes the questions valid, it isn't worth my time to explain it to you.

Ah yes, the usual "if-I-can't-validate-my-claims-it-isn't-worth-my-time-to-explain-them-to-you" tactic. Boy, talk about ducking and running.
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Your stance condones crimes against humanity

You're obviously on a defensive rant, but please, don't let me stop you. Explain to me how my "stance" condones crimes against humanity.
As stated, it isn't worth my time. If you look through my history you'll see posts as long as some of the pages here to people who argue your side intelligently.

Aris wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:

That is perhaps the most disgusting display of support for murderous bastards I have ever seen.

Bill, as Cycloptichorn correctly pointed out, I was describing their mentality, not supporting it, but it seems that when you converse, you do not give someone your full attention because you are too busy listening to ideas and preconceptions that are running around in your mind at the same time.

Stop trying to judge why I am saying something and focus on what I am saying instead.
You'll accomplish no more than Cycloptichorn by telling me what to do. Frankly I was surprised that even he would defend your disgusting post. Seeing as you just brought it up again, I decided to give you the benifit of the doubt and reread you post and those that led up to it. Though today I might also point out it was tasteless and indicative of immaturity, I remain disgusted. Were I you, I'd be ashamed of myself. Look at what you wrote:
Aris wrote:
It would seem that the barbarians in Iraq don't exactly find these people innocent, hmmm?

Something to do with them being accessories to crimes against their nation...

Haven't heard of them beheading any freelance Greek reporters there.

You're a mercenary? Guilty, chop chop.
You're a worker for an American corporation that is stealing their resources while your army invades and kills their families? Guilty, chop chop.

You're an Iraqi that is working with the occupiers? Guilty, chop chop.


This line:
Aris wrote:
Haven't heard of them beheading any freelance Greek reporters there.
removes all doubt about whether or not you were simply channelling the terrorists thoughts. That remains the most disgusting display of support for murderous bastards I have ever seen. I'm going to try hard not to respond to the likes of you again.

Guilty, chop, chop.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 03:53 am
This has got silly. Maybe I'm not reading slowly enough.
Have we stopped talking about the justification for this illegal invasion being the saving of millions of little girls from fundamentalist islam? Good.
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 05:14 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
As stated, it isn't worth my time. If you look through my history you'll see posts as long as some of the pages here to people who argue your side intelligently.

1) If it isn't worth your time, then don't speak at all to begin with, unless you feel you have the liberty to act like an ass to whoever's posts you disagree with.
2) Inferring that I am not intelligent only weakens any shred of valid argument that was left after your rants, judgments and personal attacks.
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Though today I might also point out it was tasteless and indicative of immaturity, I remain disgusted. Were I you, I'd be ashamed of myself.

More personal attacks and judgments. If that isn't indicative of immaturity, I don't know what is, eh.
OCCOM BILL wrote:
This line:
Aris wrote:
Haven't heard of them beheading any freelance Greek reporters there.
removes all doubt about whether or not you were simply channelling the terrorists thoughts. That remains the most disgusting display of support for murderous bastards I have ever seen.

Again, you are too busy judging people with your preconceptions and are too busy listening to your own analyses. My point was that people that work for the US occupational force are the ones that are getting beheaded whereas people such as Greek reporters are not, simply because we did not invade, plunder & pillage their nation so they see us as allies whereas YOU waged war on them so they are naturally going to be beheading you and not me. Comprende?
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I'm going to try hard not to respond to the likes of you again.

Yet another denigrating judgment. You won't respond to the "likes of me" again eh. Now I won't be able to sleep at night Mr. Green

BTW, not only have you resorted to personal attacks and immature behaviour but you also have displayed, aside from a lack of courtesy and civility, incompetence in arguing your points and are clearly lacking in debating skills.

When I asked you to validate your questions, you avoided doing so.
When I asked you to justify your comment on how my "stance" condones crimes against humanity, again, you avoided doing so.
When I asked you to focus on what I am saying instead of trying to make it an issue of why am I saying anything, again you resorted to personal attacks and judgements.

It is thus obvious that not only are you rude, judgmental and thus immature, but you also lack the skills to debate your points effectively. And since you have failed to validate anything you have said, your arguments apparently must be full of hot air, else you would have had something to say aside from your rants about "the likes of me".
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 07:40 am
I am outta here. This thread unfortunately has been reduced to meaningless drivel, insults and one-upmanship Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:14 am
Now see what you did, Bill. That was you.

Aris, good job, refuting some of this selfrighteous guff that's coming our way.

Au, when did insults and drivel (I don't agree, by the way) be a disqualifier on this thread? I am remembering your uncalled-for insult to Walter, by the way.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:23 am
WWF
More of Bush's uniter motif eh?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:28 am
It is a disqualifier as far as I am concerned. If you get some kicks when a discussion is reduced to this level. Enjoy.

As far as the incident with Walter which you have mentioned before. It is none of your business.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:31 am
au1929 wrote:
It is a disqualifier as far as I am concerned. If you get some kicks when a discussion is reduced to this level. Enjoy.

As far as the incident with Walter which you have mentioned before. It is none of your business.


The beauty of this thread, and it is beautiful in a terrible kind of way, is that nothing is anybody's business.
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:23 am
McTag wrote:
Aris, good job, refuting some of this selfrighteous guff that's coming our way.

I'm used to being personally attacked by certain Americans that disagree with my POV. Frankly, I'm surprised I haven't been called an America-hating foreigner yet.

Speaking out against US policy does tend to get you insulted but it all rolls off my back, so Bill can go ahead and get huffy and insult me all he wants.

I love picking apart posts like his Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:05 am
Bill started all of this with his going on about the 14 year old girls that want to be rescued from Islam that he somehow divinely knows about.

Then out of the blue someone posted that article about finding the site where all those beheadings took place. As though the fact that some take it into their heads to behead people justifies the war that was for the intention of ridding the world of the most dangerous regime with the world's most dangerous weapons. Which turned out not to be the case and people were saying so all along. But hey, they say now it don't matter if we got there by falsehoods, we got to rescue those 14 year old girls from being enslaved from Islam.

When we respond to all this nonsense we are told that we are just spouting drivel and trying to get one on the other guy.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:18 am
Words from the survivors ....

Quote:
Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Wednesday, November 10, 2004

Rule of Iraq Assassins Must End...
I'm not feeling well- it's a combination of the change of weather and the decline in the situation. Eid is less than a week away but no one is feeling at all festive. We're all worried about the situation in Falloojeh and surrounding regions. We've ceased worrying about the explosions in Baghdad and are now concerned with the people who have left their homes and valuables and are living off of the charity of others.

Allawi declared a "State of Emergency" a couple of days ago... A state of emergency *now* - because previous to this week, we Iraqis were living in an American made Utopia, as the world is well aware. So what does an "Emergency State" signify for Iraqis? Basically, it means we are now *officially* more prone to being detained, raided, and just generally abused by our new Iraqi forces and American ones. Today they declared a curfew on Baghdad after 10 p.m. but it hasn't really made an impact because people have stopped leaving their houses after dark anyway.

The last few days have been tense and heart-rending. Most of us are really worried about Falloojeh. Really worried about Falloojeh and all the innocents dying and dead in that city. There were several explosions in Baghdad these last few days and hardly any of them were covered by the press. All this chaos has somehow become uncomfortably normal. Two years ago I never would have dreamed of living like this- now this lifestyle has become the norm and I can barely remembering having lived any other way.

My cousin kept the kids home from school, which is happening quite often. One of the explosions today was so close, the house rocked with the impact and my cousin's wife paled, "Can you imagine if the girls had been at school when that happened- I would have died."

Dozens of civilians have died these last few days in Ramadi, Falloojeh, and Samarra. We are hearing about complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces. The phone lines in those areas seem to be cut off. We've been trying to call some relatives in Ramadi for the last two days, but it's next to impossible. We keep getting that dreadful busy tone and there's just no real way of knowing what is going on in there. There is talk of the use of cluster bombs and other forbidden weaponry.

We're hearing various stories about the situation. The latest is that 36 American troops have been taken prisoner along with dozens of Iraqi troops. How do people feel about the Iraqi troops? There's a certain rage. It's difficult to sympathize with a fellow-countryman while he's killing one of his own. People generally call them "Dogs of Occupation" here because instead of guarding our borders or securing areas, they are used to secure American forces. They drive out in front of American cars in order to clear the roads and possibly detonate some of those road mines at a decent distance from the American tanks. At the end of the day, most of them are the remnants of militias and that's the way they act.

And now they are being used in Falloojeh against other Iraqis. The whole situation is making me sick and there's a fury building up. The families in Falloojeh have been relegated to living in strange homes and mosques outside of the city... many of them are setting up their families inside of emptied schools and municipal buildings in Samarra and neighboring areas. Every time I see Allawi on tv talking about his regrets about 'having to attack Falloojeh' I get so angry I could scream. He's talking to the outside world, not to us. Iraqis don't buy his crap for a instant. We watch him talk and feel furious and frustrated with our new tyrant.

I was watching CNN this morning and I couldn't get the image of the hospital in Falloojeh being stormed by Iraqi and American troops out of my head- the Iraqis being made to lay face-down on the ground, hands behind their backs. Young men and old men... and then the pictures of Abu Ghraib replay themselves in my mind. I think people would rather die than be taken prisoner by the Americans.

The borders with Syria and Jordan are also closed and many of the highways leading to the borders have been blocked. There are rumors that there are currently 100 cars ready to detonate in Mosul, being driven by suicide bombers looking for American convoys. So what happens when Mosul turns into another Falloojeh? Will they also bomb it to the ground? I heard a report where they mentioned that Zarqawi 'had probably escaped from Falloojeh'... so where is he now? Mosul?

Meanwhile, Rumsfeld is making his asinine remarks again,

"There aren't going to be large numbers of civilians killed and certainly not by U.S. forces,"

No- there are only an 'estimated' 100,000 civilians in Falloojeh (and these are American estimations). So far, boys and men between the ages of 16 and 60 aren't being counted as 'civilians' in Falloojeh. They are being rounded up and taken away. And, *of course* the US forces aren't going to be doing the killing: The bombs being dropped on Falloojeh don't contain explosives, depleted uranium or anything harmful- they contain laughing gas- that would, of course, explain Rumsfeld's idiotic optimism about not killing civilians in Falloojeh. Also, being a 'civilian' is a relative thing in a country occupied by Americans. You're only a civilian if you're on their side. If you translate for them, or serve them food in the Green Zone, or wipe their floors- you're an innocent civilian. Everyone else is an insurgent, unless they can get a job as a 'civilian'.

So this is how Bush kicks off his second term. More bloodshed.

"Innocent civilians in that city have all the guidance they need as to how they can avoid getting into trouble,"

How do they do that Rumsfeld? While tons of explosives are being dropped upon your neighborhood, how do you do that? Do you stay inside the house and try to avoid the thousands of shards of glass that shoot out at you from shattering windows? Or do you hide under a table and hope that it's sturdy enough to keep the ceiling from crushing you? Or do you flee your house and pray to God you don't come face to face with an Apache or tank or that you aren't in the line of fire of a sniper? How do you avoid the cluster bombs and all the other horror being dealt out to the people of Falloojeh?

There are a couple of things I agree with. The first is the following:

"Over time you'll find that the process of tipping will take place, that more and more of the Iraqis will be angry about the fact that their innocent people are being killed..."

He's right. It is going to have a decisive affect on Iraqi opinion- but just not the way he thinks. There was a time when pro-occupation Iraqis were able to say, "Let's give them a chance..." That time is over. Whenever someone says that lately, at best, they get a lot of nasty looks... often it's worse. A fight breaks out and a lot of yelling ensues... how can one condone occupation? How can one condone genocide? What about the mass graves of Falloojeh? Leaving Islam aside, how does one agree to allow the murder of fellow-Iraqis by the strongest military in the world?

The second thing Rumsfeld said made me think he was reading my mind:

"Rule of Iraq assassins must end..." I couldn't agree more: Get out Americans.


SOURCE
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:21 am
Rule of Iraq assassins must end..." I couldn't agree more: Get out Americans

amen
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:38 am
Gelisgesti
It would seem that Iraq under Saddam was a playground compared to the situation at this time. Rather than Iraq being pacified and conditions improving as being touted by Rumsfeld and friends the war is intensifying with more and more Iraqi's taking the side of the insurgents. Is this Viet Nam redux and a no win situation?
0 Replies
 
 

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