0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:08 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Luckily for us, Ronald Reagan stayed the course in Lebanon all those years ago, never flinching for a minute after the death of those Marines. Because he fought to the end, Lebanon is today a fresh vibrant example of democracy in the Middle East -\\\

-- oh wait, he bugged out about six hours after the attack==

=== How come he didn't win a Nobel Peace Prize???

Joe


Confused

And he was also chummy with Saddam and bin Laden, right? Rolling Eyes

Joe, read my post again. I'm not blaming Clinton for anything other than responding to terrorism incorrectly, and we need to learn from all of the US' past mistakes - his, Reagan's and Carter's included.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:37 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I guess the part where Germany took over France as an act of expansion with the goal of ruling France as part of an empire whereas we defeated a despotic ruler bent on the slavery of his people with the goals of setting up a democratic government.


The problem is McG, that what you or I perceive as our motives is not what is important. It is what the Iraqis perceive that counts. Just try to imagine yourself as an Iraqi, 80% unemployment, if you work for the Americans you become a target. You never know when you may be on the receiving end of a mistaken or intentional air attack. You are endangered by both the insurgents and the Americans.

McGentrix wrote:
The insurgents are petty thugs and terrorists who would otherwise be in jail.


It has been a year and a half. How could you possibly think this much disruption is due to petty thugs and terrorists?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:59 pm
Perhaps of passing interest here ... This may come to nothing, but I've been given what I believe from past experience to be credible cause to be unsurprised should Fallujah, al Ramadi, al Qaim, and Latifya abruptly come to be very much "In the News" within the next 48 hours and remain so for some days to follow thereafter.

We shall see. I've been mistaken before.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 11:01 pm
100,000 Iraqii's dead, that's quite "handful"
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 12:46 am
dyslexia wrote:
100,000 Iraqii's dead, that's quite "handful"


Full of something.

100,000 civilian war-related casualties makes for striking headlines, however some question surrounds the validity of the estimate and methodology behind the estimate breathlessly blared by those headlines.

For instance, last week, bin Laden said " ... over 15,000 of our people have been killed ... "

Quote:
bin Laden, Transcript of 10/27 '04 Taped Address: ... So I say to you over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured while more than a thousand of you have been killed ...


bin Laden's statement squares pretty well with the only really authoritative source for information on Iraq's war-related civilian war deaths, those reported by the decidedly not Pro-War Lraq Bodycount organization:

Iraq Bodycount Latest War-Related Civilian Deaths Mar 21 '03 - Nov 1 '04: Minimum 14,219, Maximum 16,452

Here's an article critical of the study and its conclusions:

Quote:
Lancet Civilian Death Report Kills the Truth
By Michael Fumento Published 11/01/2004

The once-respectable British medical journal The Lancet has produced a report claiming we're destroying Iraq to save it. It says that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by coalition forces since the invasion began, most from airstrikes. The journal even admitted its findings were an October Surprise, pre-released online to sway the election across The Pond. But its conclusion will surely be employed by war opponents and Iraqi insurrectionists long after the November dust settles.
.
The research, led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, involved sending teams to interview 998 families in 33 allegedly randomly selected neighborhoods across Iraq. They asked how many people in each household had died and of what, then extrapolated to the nation as a whole. Thence the 100,000 figure, which they claimed was "conservative." But a better word is "worthless." Consider just this: The sample size was so small that the range for deaths was a humongous 8,000 to 194,000. So Roberts and friends just split the difference.

They admitted the sample size was small, but pleaded it was necessary because the surveyors were in constant danger. By that, they no doubt meant F-16s putting them in their crosshairs, as opposed to those jolly terrorists who routinely kidnap civilians and slowly saw off their heads with dull knifes.

More than that, the researchers didn't feel themselves bound by anything official, like death certificates. Interviews were just fine. "In the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths," they wrote.

Such faith in the honesty of Iraqis is truly touching. But these are the people who gave us "Baghdad Bob" and are regularly quoted saying that once again a U.S. airstrike killed only innocents. It's as if American had developed a chip for its weapons that zeroes in strictly on women, children, and old men.

Cluster sampling can be valid if it uses reliable data, rather than on inherently unreliable self-reporting. But it can also be easily skewed by picking out hotspots -- like determining how much of a nation's population wears dentures by surveying only nursing homes.

In fact, intentionally or otherwise, that's pretty much what The Lancet did. Most of the clusters had no deaths whatsoever. But here's the real bombshell: "Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja," the journal reported. That's it; game over; report worthless.

But why stop there? Consider also that 98,000 deaths during the time in question averages out to over 180 daily. Have you heard anyone claim we killed anywhere near that number on one day, much less every day? Even the insurrectionists wouldn't try to pull that off. They left it to The Lancet.

Consider also that even various self-styled human-rights groups have proclaimed the Lancet numbers outlandish. "The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," Marc Garlasco, told the Washington Post. "These numbers seem to be inflated." Garlasco is senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which has repeatedly been a thorn in the Pentagon's side during the Iraq war.

The overtly anti-war group www.iraqbodycount.com estimates about 14,000-16,000 deaths since the war began. It cautions that its data rely solely on press reports, but considering how the Iraqis like to pad body counts this means its own figures are certainly too high.

Finally, consider that The Lancet researchers are far from disinterested observers. "I was opposed to the war and I still think that the war was a bad idea," Roberts admitted to the Associated Press. "As an American, I am really, really sorry to be reporting this."

If you think Roberts's Lancet editor Richard Horton might have been a check on sloppy work or outright false propaganda, think again. "Democratic imperialism has led to more deaths not fewer," he told the BBC, proclaiming coalition efforts in Iraq "a failure."

We thus witness the further erosion of the reputation of Britain's former leading medical journal. Recently it's been embarrassed by two other reports. One tied childhood vaccines to autism, but turned out to have been paid for by a trial lawyer representing children in the study. The other combined 14 studies of antioxidant supplements, of which some showed protective effects, some showed no effect, and one showed a negative effect. It thereby concluded antioxidant supplements can kill you.

Now The Lancet has become Al-Jazeera on the Thames.

Michael Fumento (Fumento[at]pobox.com) is a senior fellow at Hudson Institute in Washington, D.C. and a nationally syndicated columnist with Scripps Howard News Service.


And heres another:

Quote:
Study on civilian deaths flawed

BY FRIDA GHITIS


On the last Thursday in October, barely five days before Election Day, the British medical journal the Lancet announced the release of a study concluding that some 100,000 Iraqi civilians died after the fall of Saddam Hussein, as a result of the U.S.-led war. The Lancet fast-tracked the story, rushing it through its traditionally lengthy review and editing process in an effort to bring it to the public before November 2. The piece did not make the print deadline, so the sensational headline-grabbing study came out only online, and quickly spread to all corners of the world, splashing its questionable results for all the world to see.

Manipulating science for the purpose of pushing a political agenda is hardly new. The Bush administration routinely does it. The practice is reprehensible and the White House deserves all the scorn it has reaped for engaging in it. We've come to expect the worst from politicians. But when the scientific community retaliates in kind, succumbing to the temptation to play election-year politics with science -- with the deaths of civilians, no less -- our ability to trust the judgement of scientists suffers a potentially irreparable blow.

The Lancet's study, led by a Johns Hopkins University team, utilized some controversial methods, questioning Iraqis in a just a few dozen clusters and extrapolating the results to reach numbers for the entire country. The authors conclude that ''about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.'' But even by the study's own numbers one could reach quite a different conclusion. The so-called ''confidence interval'' indicates that anywhere from 8,000 to 194,000 Iraqi civilians died. The authors took the average of those two and pointed to that as the ultimate result. But it would be just as accurate, within the parameters of this study, to say that the number of dead was 8,000 or 20,000 or 194,000. With a wide range like that, the results don't mean very much.

Viewed in context

Most efforts to count civilian casualties in Iraq, including some by anti-war groups, have reached as high as 30,000 fatalities -- a huge number, to be sure. Like any analysis of casualties in Iraq, we must look at it in the context of what was happening there before the war. International sanctions were said to kill at least 10,000 Iraqis every month. Saddam Hussein, whose forces wiped out entire villages, filled mass graves with the bodies of at least 300,000 Iraqis; and the war Saddam launched against Iran left about one million people dead on both sides.

Knowing how many civilians have died as the result of this war is extraordinarily important. Even if Iraq ultimately turns into a thriving, open and free society, we must know the real price of the campaign. And human life, especially civilian life, is the most important, most painful, and most meaningful measure of that cost. That's why it is crucial that scientists give us reliable, credible, unbiased figures. The journals that act as gatekeepers for scientific work have a solemn duty to maintain the highest standards. That includes keeping political agendas from affecting the process. The Lancet, however, decided instead to inject itself into the political campaign.

Tainted by opinion

The principal investigator has openly expressed his anti-war views. The rush to publicize the article makes one wonder what other shortcuts went into the process. How was the sample chosen? Were the villages whose inhabitants now lie in mass graves perhaps ''randomly'' excluded from the sample? How did Fallujah, an epicenter of violence, conveniently become one of just 33 clusters?

If the study had reached the opposite conclusion -- that a much lower than expected number had died -- the world would have jumped to point out just how flawed this study was, and how extraordinary it is that the Lancet has become a political instrument in the service of a political agenda. Since the results are presented as an indictment of the war, they have been embraced by anti-war activists, and met with silence, at least so far, by other scientists.

Once the article makes its way to its subscribers, well after the election, experts will likely express their doubts about the conclusions. Their letters, as we well know, will not make the front pages. In the end, we will be left with little new credible information about Iraq, and with questions about how much we can trust what scientists and their journals want to tell us.

Frida Ghitis, a freelance journalist, writes about world affairs.





The Lancet study itself, for what its worth:
Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq:
cluster sample survey
Les Roberts, Riyadh Lafta, Richard Garfield, Jamal Khudhairi, Gilbert Burnham
(Download note: 7 page PDF file)

Note the 95% Confidence Interval that the number of war-related deaths falls within the range of a minimum of 8000 to a maximum of 194,000. To tally even the midpoint of that range over the year and a half since the war started would call for nearly 200 war-related civilian deaths per day, every day, without a break, for the entire time. Apart from that, not even bin Laden, well-known and credible anti-war activists, nor the jihadist insurgents themselves make any claim so much as remotely similar.


Think about it.


Or don't, as you prefer.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 07:27 am
timber,

15,000 people aren't nothing.

And it does seem apparent that the war drums are sounding outside Falluja and a few other insurgent strongholds. The commanders were waiting until Bush got his victory.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 07:56 am
Isn't it odd that this should be revealed after the election is over?


Ammo looters overran
G.I.s at Al Qaqaa

LOS ANGELES - Explosives were looted from the Al Qaqaa ammunitions site in Iraq while outnumbered U.S. soldiers assigned to guard them watched helplessly, soldiers told the Los Angeles Times.About a dozen U.S. troops were guarding the sprawling facility in the weeks after the April 2003 fall of Baghdad when Iraqi looters raided the site, the newspaper quoted a group of unidentified soldiers as saying.

Some sent messages to commanders in Baghdad requesting help, but got no reply, they said.

"It was complete chaos. It was looting like L.A. during the Rodney King riots," one officer said.

The eyewitness accounts reported by the Times bolster claims that the U.S. military had failed to safeguard the powerful explosives, the newspaper said.

Iraqi officials told the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency last month that about 380 tons of high-grade explosives had been taken from the Al Qaqaa facility.

One senior noncommissioned officer said soldiers "were running from one side of the compound to the other side, trying to kick people out" and at least 100 vehicles were at the site waiting for the military to leave so they could loot the munitions.

The Pentagon has claimed the explosives were removed before the U.S.-led invasion to oust Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and not during the chaos following the fall of Baghdad.



In reality it would have made little difference since the economy, war in Iraq, health care and all the other relevant issues did not play a major roll in Bush's reelection. Fundamental religion won the day.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 08:08 am
Four more years ........ Crying or Very sad

Quote:
Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Thursday, November 04, 2004

Disappointment...
Well, what is there to say? Disappointment doesn't even begin to describe it...

To the red states (and those who voted for Bush): You deserve no better- I couldn't wish worse on you if I tried. He represents you perfectly... and red really is your color. It's the color of the blood of thousands of Iraqis and by the time this four-year catastrophe in the White House is over, tousands of Americans, likely.

To the blue states (and those who were thinking when they voted): Condolences. Good luck- you'll need it.

I'm thinking of offering up the idea of "Election Condolences" to Hallmark or Yahoo Greetings. The cards can have those silly little poems inside of them, like:

Condolences and heartfelt tears-
You get Bush for four more years!

or

Sympathies in advance
For when they reinstate the draft!
We hope (insert_name_here) stays as safe as he/she can
And writes frequently while in Iran!

or

Bush and Cheney- what a pair!
Who said life isn't fair?
While Iraq gets tanks and occupation-
You have idiots to run your nation!

or

Cheer up...
Your son was too young for Afghanistan.
And it's still a bit early for Iran-
But there's plenty of time for Syria...
And he'll definitely serve in North Korea!


I guess justice was too much to ask for.

- posted by river @ 11:45 PM
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:52 am
US military 'seals off Falluja'


Marines have been preparing for an assault on the city
The US military has sealed off the rebel-held Iraqi city of Falluja amid speculation an assault is imminent.
All roads in and out of the mainly Sunni Muslim city have been closed by US troops, Reuters reports.

US and Iraqi officials say they need to flush out insurgents ahead of elections due in January.

Speaking in Brussels, Iraq's interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said the window was closing for a peaceful settlement in Falluja.

"We intend to liberate the people and bring the rule of law," he told a news conference at a European Union summit.

"The insurgents and the terrorists are still operating there. We hope they will come to their senses, otherwise we will have to bring them to face justice."


The BBC 's Paul Wood, who is with US troops outside Falluja, says Iraqi troops have now arrived at their positions, and final preparations appear to be taking place.

He says units are stocking up with large quantities of artillery shells, and the pace of training has increased.

"We are making last preparations. It will be soon. We are just awaiting orders from Prime Minister Allawi," Marine Col Michael Shupp told Reuters near Falluja.

Mr Allawi has repeatedly threatened an all-out assault on Falluja if residents do not turn in Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who is thought to be based there.

His al-Qaeda-linked group has captured and killed hostages and is blamed for a string of suicide bombings.

Weeks of air strikes

US military said it had carried out five air strikes within seven hours on Friday, destroying a command post, arms caches and rebel positions, Reuters reports.

Our correspondent says there is an assumption among the marines that a major assault is inevitable and imminent.

US and Iraqi officials say there are several thousand fighters holed up in the city, 50km (30 miles) west of Baghdad.

The Iraqi authorities say the fighters are highly organised and led by former army officers from Saddam Hussein's army.

The combat hospital at the main US base near Falluja has set up a morgue and doubled medical staff and supplies in preparation for an expected stream of casualties, AP reports.

The US has carried out weeks of "precision strikes" aimed at targeting Zarqawi's fighters and other militant groups in the city.

<end quote>
This info from the Beeb
McT
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:57 am
Don't forget that a good percentage of those '15,000' civilian deaths were caused by the terrorist insurgents firing mortar rounds with no regard for civilian life, by sabotage and suicide bombers targeting civilian targets, and by terrorists who dressed as civilians and who used civilian women and children as shields so they could fire at allied forces with impunity. The U.S. has lost many of is own purely because it continually pulls its punches to not cause unnecessary civilian injuries and deaths.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:58 am
Killer Rap

Listen up homey
Salomey can blow me
that oil inside
gonna pimp my ride

Say what?
I don't give a fuk
Say what?
Got a pickup truck
Say what?
Kill em for a buck
Say what?
Say what?
Say what?

Faggots and muslims
Jesus' been puzzlin
bomb em with a flood?
drown em in their blood?

Say what?
We don't give a ****
Say what?
shoot em till they split
Say what?
thus it is writ
Say what?
Say what?
Say what?

Land of the Free and
the methedrine He-man
KISS MY FLAG
Put your babies in a bag

Say what?
Gonna spread our love
Say what?
From up above
Say what?
barb ee cue some dove
Say what?
Say what?
Say what?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:02 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Don't forget that a good percentage of those '15,000' civilian deaths were caused by the terrorist insurgents firing mortar rounds with no regard for civilian life, by sabotage and suicide bombers targeting civilian targets, and by terrorists who dressed as civilians and who used civilian women and children as shields so they could fire at allied forces with impunity. The U.S. has lost many of is own purely because it continually pulls its punches to not cause unnecessary civilian injuries and deaths.


Oh, please. We've seen the opposite, on video, remember.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:11 am
Blatham, you didn't strike me as a lover of urban hip-hop. Rap music is sure to stimulate your intellect. Kudos.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:16 am
Mctag writes

Quote:
Oh, please. We've seen the opposite, on video, remember.


You've no doubt seen videos showing the ugliest side of war. You have not seen any videos representative of the norm or the whole that show U.S. or coalition forces putting civilian lives at unnecessary risk. I don't have the stats to prove it, but I would bet pretty good money that more civilian lives have been lost at the hands of the Iraqis and other terrorists than have been lost by any action of the coalition.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:31 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Mctag writes

Quote:
Oh, please. We've seen the opposite, on video, remember.


You've no doubt seen videos showing the ugliest side of war. You have not seen any videos representative of the norm or the whole that show U.S. or coalition forces putting civilian lives at unnecessary risk. I don't have the stats to prove it, but I would bet pretty good money that more civilian lives have been lost at the hands of the Iraqis and other terrorists than have been lost by any action of the coalition.


Using airstrikes and artillery in an urban environment cannot help but put civilian lives at risk. We do not have just a small band of terrorists holed up. We have entire cities under siege.

Michael Savage has been advocating the leveling of Fallujah and other insurgent stronholds for some time now. Do you agree with his strategy?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:38 am
Quote:
Using airstrikes and artillery in an urban environment cannot help but put civilian lives at risk. We do not have just a small band of terrorists holed up. We have entire cities under siege.

Michael Savage has been advocating the leveling of Fallujah and other insurgent stronholds for some time now. Do you agree with his strategy?


Yes the purpose of war is to kill people and break things. It is unfortunate, but that is the way war is done. Evenso the airstrikes did not target civilians and we have put our military at greater risk purely because we do mitigate civilian casualties as much as we possibly can.

As far as Fallujah goes, I agree with Michael Savage that we should level a mosque used as a military command or strike post and we shouldn't be reluctant to level a neighborhood harboring the enemy. But if you have listened to Michael Savage, you know he advocates ordering the civilians out before leveling it. With consent of the provisional Iraqi government, I would have no problem with leveling Fallujah if it would end the war. It was such extreme measures in WWII that produced a white flag from the Japanese and ended the worst of WWII hostilities to the enormous benefit of their country and ours.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:45 am
_________________
Quote:


Mesquite, I just noticed your signature. Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:50 am
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0925-02.htm

Quote:
Published on Saturday, September 25, 2004 by Knight-Ridder
More Iraqi Civilians Killed by US Forces Than By Insurgents, Data Shows
by Nancy A. Youssef

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis - most of them civilians - as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder.

According to the ministry, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 - when the ministry began compiling the data - until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,720 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.


http://www.freep.com/news/nw/iraq25e_20040925.htm

Quote:
According to the ministry, which provided the Free Press with the figures Friday, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 -- when the ministry began compiling the data -- until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,720 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.

While most of the dead are believed to be civilians, the data include an unknown number of police and Iraqi national guardsmen. Many Iraqi deaths, especially of insurgents, are never reported, so the actual number of Iraqis killed in fighting could be higher.

During the same period, 432 U.S. soldiers were killed.
Iraqi officials said the statistics proved that U.S. air strikes targeting insurgents also were killing large numbers of civilians. Some of the officials say these casualties are undermining popular acceptance of the U.S.-backed interim government.

The U.S. command is planning more aggressive military operations to clear the way for nationwide elections scheduled for January, the Bush administration has said.

Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, a U.S. military spokesman, said the insurgents were living in residential areas, sometimes in homes filled with munitions


The point to all this about civillian deaths was to say that because civillian deaths is so high, it is going to be impossible to sway the Iraqi people into fighting the "insurgencies." If the "insurgency" did not enjoy support from local Iraqi people then they could not be hiding in their homes and things without at some point someone turning them in to the US.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:50 am
Foxfyre
Leveling the cities of Iraq plays right into the insurgents hands. It gains them more support from the Iraqi populace. How would you react if your so called liberators destroyed your home, livelihood and killed your relatives, neighbors and friends?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 10:57 am
You know what Au? I am simply not concerned about the feelings of the insurgents. For centuries people have avoided antagonizing bullies in hopes the bullies wouldn't hurt them. Well the bullies hurt us, and I'm no longer in favor of placating them on the very thin theory that if we just back off, they'll stop being bullies.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 06/20/2025 at 11:54:31