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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:30 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Pay no attention to that childish blathering, Foxy. :wink:

Foxfyre wrote:
Sadly your information is sadly lacking Cyclop, and again recites your complaints with virtually no plan of how to do it differently. I won't even respond until you do your homework.
A very wise course of action. Cyclop knew things no one else on earth knew at the time of the invasion. And using aljazeerah as a source of information would be part of a joke from anyone else. Blatham's salon.com, which is absurdly slanted itself, looks like voice of reason compared to Al Jazeerah. Laughing I do appreciate the laughs, though. Laughing

Blatham, if you don't recognize that you're addressing the flip side of that coin, your eyes aren't all the way open either. Idea


willy

As I'm not an American, and as I'm not a member of, nor affiliated with, any political party anywhere on earth, the charge of partisanship would be uncautious. Further, as I've said on any number of occasions, I would have happily supported John McCain to head up a US administration, that ought to go some distance to indicating that I hold certain principles of governance to be more important than membership in some party.

Salon, of course, carries regular columns by two conservatives (as differentiated from, say, townhall).

I'm going to paste a piece from The NY Review of Books written by Ian Buruma as it voices far better than I ever could the reasons why THIS administration has been such a destructive force for America and for the world.

Quote:
IAN BURUMA
Oxford, England

There is such a thing as Americophilia. It does not have the rich pedigree of Anglophilia or Francophilia, or even Germanophilia. In fact, it is not always recognized as a bona fide philia at all. But it exists. It existed in Europe during the Jazz Age, and in Europe, Japan, and pretty much everywhere during the 1950s. Even the Vietnam War didn't really kill it, for the center of protest was still in America. Americans had the best lines, and tunes, against the war. It still exists, although it is in danger of going the way of Germanophilia, into the fog of nostalgia, the land of what might have been.

I have always been an Americophile, or at least from the moment, at a very early age, when I received a postcard of the Empire State Building from my father, who was on a business trip to New York. The US, then, was an exotic place, where everything seemed bigger, glitzier, richer, more exciting. Americophilia, in my generation, was nurtured by the sexy allure of popular music. Even the names of the most provincial American cities?-Memphis, Tennessee; Flagstaff, Arizona?-were turned into desirable fetishes through the lyrics of rock-and-roll.

The sexiness of American pop culture was not such a trivial thing. For it had the ring of freedom, of a country with endless possibilities, where you could do things that would make the lace curtains of old Europe twitch. Much of this was a myth, of course, as the Beatles, Americophiles themselves, found out when they outraged Middle America as soon as they landed on The Ed Sullivan Show. American conservatism, like everything else American, runs into extremes. But it was a potent myth, with some substance. What was beautiful was the idea of America, where man was free to pursue happiness in any way he liked, as long as it was lawful (or, perhaps, even when it was not).

Anybody, in theory, and often in practice, could reinvent him- or herself as an American in a way that was impossible to imagine anywhere else. The fact that many Americans, especially if they lacked the advantage of a pale skin, came nowhere near to fulfilling the American Dream did not destroy the beauty of the idea. It still held out hope to millions who were poor or persecuted, or just restless, that in America it might still be possible to find a better way of life.

Europeans such as myself, born in the aftermath of World War II, also grew up with another, related myth, which had a great deal of substance: liberation from Nazi occupation to the beat of Glenn Miller, the sweet odor of Lucky Strikes, and the broad smiles of guys from Memphis or Kansas City. As this summer's anniversary celebrations of the Allied landings in 1944 demonstrated, even the French never forgot that blessing.

It was with this fizzing cocktail of images, then, of swinging GIs, rock-and-roll, constitutional liberty, and the Empire State Building, that I first landed in the US with a spring in my step in the summer of 1970. In time the rosy hue of my Americophilia would fade a little. I soon noticed the bleaker sides of American life; American friends were often the first to point them out. And yet I retained something of that Kennedy Airport spring in my step, as though always in anticipation of adventures that could happen only here, in this vast land of promise.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But this, too, has faded. No doubt it has something to do with my getting older. You cannot spring forever. But something else has changed, especially after September 11, 2001. More and more I hear the clichés of my own Americophilia being spouted in ways that sound false, as though I'm listening to a favorite tune being distorted by a faulty player. The rhetoric of freedom, fighting tyranny, and liberating the enslaved peoples of the world speaks louder than ever. But too often it is laced with a fear of foreigners, with a nasty edge of chauvinism and a surly belligerence. The US has always had mood swings from active intervention abroad to sour isolation. What appears to be the current mood in Washington is a peculiar mixture of both: a desire to fix the world alone, whether the world likes it or not.

Revolutionary wars are out of style in the Old World, which, after a century of mass slaughter, has retreated into its own version of isolation. So there is something bracing about the neoconservative talk of liberation and democracy, wherever and whenever. But the aggressive disdain expressed by those same armchair liberators for people who disagree with their strategy, or who take a more skeptical view of violent revolution as a national policy, suggests Napoleonic hubris. And the odd insouciance displayed by the democratic warriors toward the systematic assaults on American liberties in the name of security or patriotism suggests a less than wholehearted commitment to democracy at home.

I am often reminded, in the US today, of Britain during the twilight years of Margaret Thatcher's rule. Then, too, hard-line Tories talked a great deal about battling for freedom and the like, but usually in a snarling, spitting, fearful rage against "Europe." The Battle of Britain would be invoked against trade policies hashed out in Brussels. D-Day would be remembered in fishery disputes. And Winston Churchill was regularly trotted out as the spirit incarnated by the first female Tory Party leader.

Going to war against states without any evidence that they are part of the terrorist threat, while invoking Munich, Chamberlain, and Winston Churchill, does not look like a sensible strategy. Turning the US into an armed fortress, making it harder and harder for foreigners to enter the country, is the opposite of defending an open society. Legal sophistry in defense of torture casts a dark stain on the White House. Harassing harmless campaigners for causes not popular with the current administration damages not only the beauty but also the substance of the American idea of freedom.

It is still possible that most Iraqis will come out of the war better off than they were before. Being ruled by Saddam Hussein was about as bad as it gets. The question is whether the US will be a better place after years of fear-mongering, military abuse, erosion of civil liberties, and a constant stream of political propaganda that distorts America's proudest legacies. If America can no longer offer the hope of freedom, refuge from persecution, or a second chance in the lives of millions, the whole world will be worse off. And we cannot blame al-Qaeda for that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:34 pm
Thok, the law of innocent life is tragic under any circumstances. But what the article you posted does not mention is that most of the untimely innocent deaths in Iraq have been at the hands of the Iraqi and insurgent terrorists.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:42 pm
It also says that "Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children," which I find hard to believe.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:44 pm
Hard to believe because it is blatantly false. It is possible that the innocents killed by coalition forces were mostly women and children. I haven't seen any demographics on that. But one of the reason we have suffered as many deaths and wounding of our military as we have is because we have been so damn careful NOT to harm innocents as much as possible.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Thok, the law of innocent life is tragic under any circumstances. But what the article you posted does not mention is that most of the untimely innocent deaths in Iraq have been at the hands of the Iraqi and insurgent terrorists.


How could you possibly have evidence for this claim, fox.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:48 pm
Thanks blatham!

If I could write, I would have written something very like the piece you have posted by Ian Buruma.

He expresses my feelings very well. I, who love America, who have stood on the Twin Towers and who wept when they fell, am deeply saddened by the enduring damage done to the country by those behind George Bush.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:48 pm
Blatham, the coin's flip side I was referring to was Cyclop being as partisan as you were saying Foxy is... not you. :wink: However; Cycloptichorn is right that I shouldn't attack the messenger either.

Your suggestion that Salon wasn't biased brought up another good laugh, thank you. Laughing (I watched the quote: "no spin zone" for the first time last night :wink:, too... hint, hint, hint...

Oh, and an interesting perspective, btw.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Question: If the UN believed Saddam did not have WMD, why did they devote years to financing an expensive inspection team who were charged to look for them?


Foxfyre, these new-democrats keep changing their positions as they fall on their faces with their current ones. The new-democrats supported John Kerry's position: "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." The new-democrats say we should have taken more time to determine whether or not Saddam had WMD. They ignore the now obvious harmful consequences of taking more time. They ignore Saddam's repeated interruptions and limitations on the UN inspection teams. They ignore the now obvious reason for those interruptions and limitations. They ignore Saddam's obvious need for more time to hide whatever he did not want the UN inspectors to find. They ignore the fact that the last such interruption before the UN inspectors were invited back one last time, lasted more than a month. Certainly that was enough time to hide much of what Saddam did not want the UN inspectors to find.

If all that did not succeed in motivating both the French and Russians to commit to not veto an invasion, why would the new-democrats think both these two countries would ever commit to not veto an invasion of Iraq? Why would the new-democrats back a candidate who thinks such commitments could come soon enough to permit our continuing survival? Furthermore, why would the new-democrats back a candidate who continues to think the invasion of Iraq was "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time?"

I ask you these questions in the desperate hope you or others might shed some light on their answers.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:54 pm
Where Thok's piece strays from reality is using only the 14.6 months before the invasion as a measuring stick. Those months alone were not indicative of just how miserable Iraqi life really was. Idea
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:55 pm
I don't have answers for that Ican. I think John Leo might have touched on it here:
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37474&highlight=

This is a thread started a little while ago, but Leo's essay is very thought provoking and, while not offering any solutions, does cast some light on the situation we're facing.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 01:12 pm
bill

Didn't mean to imply that Salon wasn't, in the majority of their writers' opinion, left-leaning. I equate Salon or NY Times with the Wall Street Journal...each have an editorial slant, but regularly and consistently include writers who do not share the editorial position. It's very important, I think, to acknowledge these news sources' valuation of plurality in viewpoint, and to note other sources who advance a singular point of view, and townhall is such a one.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 01:21 pm
McTag

I think that piece resonates with all of us here who are external observers to the polity of the US.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 02:27 pm
THE MYTH OF THE 'MISSING EXPLOSIVES': A SHAMELESS LIE

October 28, 2004 -- SHOULD the United Na tions decide who be comes our president? Sen. John Kerry wouldn't mind. He's shamelessly promoting the lies that the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency is telling about Iraq.

A devious IAEA report suggests that 400 tons of explosives were spirited away by our enemies under the noses of our Keystone-Cops troops after the fall of Baghdad. The document just happened to be released in the closing days of our presidential election. Purely a coincidence, of course. Brought to you by those selfless U.N. bureaucrats who failed in Iraq and are now failing in Iran.

Since Kerry's willing to blame our troops for a scandal invented by America-haters, let's look at the story the military way, by the numbers.

One: The IAEA claims its inspectors visited the ammo dump at Al-Qaqaa on March 9, 2003, and found the agency's seals intact on bunkers containing sensitive munitions. Unverifiable, but let's assume that much is true.

Two: Faced with an impending invasion, Saddam's forces did what any military would do. They began dispersing ammunition stocks from every storage site that might be a Coalition bombing target. If the Iraqis valued it, they tried to move it. Before the war.

Three: Members of our 3rd Infantry Division ?- the heroes who led the march to Baghdad ?- reached the site in question in early April. Despite the pressures of combat, they combed the dump. Nothing was found. Al-Qaqaa was a vast junkyard.

Four: Our 101st Airborne Division assumed responsibility for the sector as the 3ID closed on Baghdad. None of the Screaming Eagles found any IAEA markers ?- even one would have been a red flag to be reported immediately.

Five: At the end of May, military teams searching for key Iraqi weapons scoured Al-Qaqaa. They found plenty of odds and ends ?- the detritus of war ?- but no IAEA seals. And no major stockpiles.

Six: Now, just before Election Day, the IAEA, a discredited organization embarrassed by the Bush administration's decision to call it on the carpet, suddenly realizes that 400 tons of phantom explosives went missing from the dump.

Seven: Even if repeated inspections by U.S. troops had somehow missed this deadly elephant on the front porch, and even if the otherwise-incompetent Iraqis had been so skilled and organized they were able to sneak into Al-Qaqaa and load up 400 tons of Saddam's love-powder, it would have taken a Teamsters' convention to get the job done.

Eight: If the Iraqis had used military transport vehicles of five-ton capacity, it would have required 80 trucks for one big lift, or, say, 20 trucks each making four trips. They would have needed special trolleys, forklifts, handling experts and skilled drivers (explosives aren't groceries). This operation could not have happened either during or after the war, while the Al-Qaqaa area was flooded with U.S. troops.

Nine: We owned the skies. And when you own the skies, you own the roads. We were watching for any sign of organized movement. A gaggle of non-Coalition vehicles driving in and out of an ammo dump would have attracted the attention of our surveillance systems immediately.

Ten: And you don't just drive high explosives cross-country, unless you want to hear a very loud bang. Besides, the Iraqis would have needed to hide those 400 tons of explosives somewhere else. Unless the uploaded trucks are still driving around Iraq.

Eleven: Even if the IAEA told the truth and the Iraqis were stealth-logistics geniuses who emptied the site's ammo bunkers under our noses, the entire issue misses a greater point: 400 tons of explosives amounted to a miniscule fraction of the stocks Saddam had built up. Coalition demolition experts spent months destroying more than 400,000 tons of Iraqi war-making materiel.

Our soldiers eliminated more than a thousand tons of packaged death for every ton the United Nations claims they missed. Does that sound like incompetence? Why hasn't our success been mentioned? Can't our troops get credit for anything?

Twelve: The bottom line is that, if the explosives were ever there, the Iraqis moved them before our troops arrived. There is no other plausible scenario.

Sen. Kerry knows this is a bogus issue. And he doesn't care. He's willing to accuse our troops of negligence and incompetence to further his political career. Of course, he did that once before.

link
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 02:40 pm
from the piece McG posted
Quote:
Sen. Kerry knows this is a bogus issue. And he doesn't care. He's willing to accuse our troops of negligence and incompetence to further his political career. Of course, he did that once before.


And this is why, if Kerry loses, he will lose. I like to think there is a limit to how much the American public is willing to have its intelligence insulted.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 02:59 pm
Foxy wrote
Quote:
Sen. Kerry knows this is a bogus issue. And he doesn't care. He's willing to accuse our troops of negligence and incompetence to further his political career. Of course, he did that once before.


You have been listening and of course bought the line that someone wrote for the moron. Kerry nor anyone else has denigrated our service people. It is the leadership, Bush and his cabal that are at fault. The military follows orders and does the best it can with what it has. The are being misdirected and shortchanged.
Bush has been trying to sell the concept that Kerry has been blaming the military for the F**kup and as usual his followers like yourself eat that BS up.

Foxy wrote.
Quote:
I like to think there is a limit to how much the American public is willing to have its intelligence insulted.


One would think so. However as long as there are people like you Bush can continue to shovel the s**t and they will continue to swallow it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 03:02 pm
Au, I LISTEN myself with my own ears to Kerry's speeches. I hear the contempt for the military in his campaign rhetoric. He occasionally has a line commending the service of the troops, and then almost in the next breath holds them up as inadequate for their task. Those I know in the military are developing a seething contempt for him as a result. For the Commander in Chief and the military to not respect each other is not a good thing anytime I think, and is especially worrisome in wartime.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 03:14 pm
Foxfyre - you're going to have to reference that accusation. I've just been doing a search through factcheck and similar sources. Kerry is quoted supporting the troops, commending them on their efforts, backing the troops.

He may have said that the number of troops were inadequate, but I can find no reference to him finding U.S. soldiers inadequate.

Reference please.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 03:14 pm
Foxfyre said re Kerry and the UN: "and who he will relinquish all authority re Iraq to once he is president. "

People who listen to his actual words know that the last thing Kerry would do is relinquish authority to the UN.

F says also about Kerry: "then almost in the next breath holds them up [our troops] as inadequate for their task. "

Kerry has NEVER said that our troops were inadequate. He has said that there were not adequate troops on the ground, and that the ones who are there are not adequately armoured and supplied, which any reasonable person who reads and listens already knows.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 03:21 pm
ehBeth, we've been talking all week about the 'missing munitions in Iraq'. Kerry's rhetoric is that these should have been secured and guarded and George Bush failed to do so. Well anybody with any sense knows it wasn't George Bush's job to do so but, if it should have been done, was the military's job to do so. The soldier in the field hears this as HIS failure, not the Presidents. Also the scandal at Abu Ghraib, or that there are inadequate forces to keep the peace or there was no plan to keep the peace, etc. etc. etc. This soldier on the ground in Iraq does not hear any of this as a slam against the President. He hears it as a criticism of the military. I don't have a link since most of this I've heard the soldiers say on TV or in person.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 03:23 pm
ADMINISTRATION MISLEADS ON MISSING EXPLOSIVES

The Bush administration is pushing the theory that the 380 tons of explosives were missing from the Al Qaqaa storage facility before the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. Administration spokesman Dan Senor said on CNN that "there's a very high probability that those weapons weren't even there before the war."[1]

For days, this theory has been in direct conflict with a Pentagon official, who told the Associate Press on Monday, "US-led coalition troops had searched Al Qaqaa in the immediate aftermath of the March 2003 invasion and confirmed that the explosives, which had been under IAEA seal since 1991, were intact."[2]

Now, video shot in Iraq by a Minneapolis news team provides further proof that the administration's theory is bogus. After the invasion - on April 18, 2003 - the Minneapolis ABC news crew was stationed just south of the Al Qaqaa facility.[]3 That day, they drove 2 to 3 miles north with the 101st Airborne Division. There, "members of the 101st Airborne Division showed the 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS news crew bunker after bunker of material labeled 'explosives.'"[4] Some of the boxes were marked "Al Qaqaa."[5] One soldier told the crew: "we can stick [detonation cords] in those and make some good bombs."[6] Watch the video:
http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65509.

Sources:

1. "Paula Zahn Now," CNN, 10/26/04,
http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65510.
2. "380 tons of explosives missing in Iraq," Associated Press, 10/25/04, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65511.
3. "5 EYEWITNESS NEWS video may be linked to missing explosives in Iraq," KSTP.com, 10/28/04, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65512.
4. Ibid, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65512.
5. Ibid, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65512.
6. Ibid, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=65512.
0 Replies
 
 

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