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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 09:38 am
Is questioning your opinion, ican711nm, now a villification of the United Staes of America?

So you are the President himself in real life Shocked
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 09:41 am
ican: You were not talking about how many al-Queda are there now. You were talking about how many fled to Iraq at the outset of the Afghan war which is where your recommendation came in dealing with Iraq by invasion. You have admitted you have no numbers on how many tried to or succeeded in making it into Iraq. Case closed.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 09:43 am
The dividing of the u.s. is far more crucial than attacking a nation who were not an imminent threat to the U.S. The comparison is pallid and inconclusive.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 09:48 am
Quote:
nearly 50% of all terrorism casualties last year stem from fewer than a dozen incidents


But more people were killed. It's hardly compensation to know that you are more likely to be killed by a large bomb than a small bomb Very Happy
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 09:52 am
Actually, according to the article I read this AM the problem is now being faced by Saudi Arabia. Many of those chased out of Afghanistan and subsequently out of Iraq are returning to the motherland. Saudi Arabia to wreak their havoc. It is almost poetic justice since the poison was exported and supported by the Saudi's and now is coming home to roost.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:17 am
Quote:
New look at Bush's `16 words'

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | July 11, 2004

LAST YEAR at this time, the media were in full scandal mode over 16 words that President Bush had spoken nearly six months earlier.

"The British government has learned," Bush had said in his State of the Union address in January, "that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

A furor erupted over that statement when a CIA consultant and ex-diplomat named Joseph Wilson, who had gone to Niger in 2002 to look into the matter, publicly claimed that the charge wasn't true. The White House agreed that the line shouldn't have been in Bush's speech, but far from quelling the uproar, that admission only intensified it.

Within days, Howard Dean was making comparisons to Watergate, a group of left-leaning former intelligence officers were calling for the resignation of Vice President Dick Cheney (who had taken a close interest in the uranium evidence), and the Bush-is-a-liar shrieking reached fever pitch. The Democratic National Committee cut an ad accusing Bush of deliberately lying to the American people. And the press embarked on a classic feeding frenzy, turning loose a tidal wave of coverage on what had been, by any sober estimate, only a very small piece of the administration's case against Saddam.

Upshot: Bush's credibility took a blow, support for the war in Iraq was undermined, and the idea that Saddam's regime had tried to acquire refined uranium in Africa for use in nuclear weapons was dismissed as false.

But what if it was true?

Late last month, the Financial Times reported that, according to European intelligence agencies, Iraq was one of five countries negotiating with smugglers in Niger for the illegal purchase of uranium yellowcake. "These claims support the assertion made in the British government dossier . . . that Iraq sought to buy uranium from an African country," the Financial Times reported in a front-page story on June 27. For some reason, though, the US media showed virtually no interest in that revelation. (One exception: columnist William Safire in The New York Times.)

A few days ago, the Financial Times was back with more news: An independent British commission investigating the government's use of intelligence during the runup to the war in Iraq, the paper reported on Wednesday, "is expected to conclude that Britain's spies were correct to say that Saddam Hussein's regime sought to buy uranium from Niger."

But this, too, has been largely ignored by the American press. Curious, no? Journalists couldn't get enough of this topic when the story line was that Bush and the British had lied. Shouldn't they find it just as riveting when facts point in the other direction?

Here's another fact, this one from a recent book by a one-time US ambassador: In 1999, Saddam's information minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf approached an official of Niger to talk about expanding trade, an approach the official interpreted as a possible attempt to buy uranium. The author of the book? None other than Joseph Wilson -- the man who accused the Bush administration last year of making up an Iraqi interest in uranium from Africa. Now, it seems, he comes close to confirming that interest. Yet except for a single story in The Washington Post, the media have had virtually nothing to say about Wilson's new account. To be sure, none of this proves that Saddam's agents sought uranium for use in nuclear weapons. What it proves is that reasonable people had good reason to believe that that's what Saddam's agents were doing. Just as reasonable people had good reason to believe that Iraq was armed with biological or chemical weapons. Remember: That was the deeply held consensus of the US intelligence community. It was affirmed by Republicans and Democrats, by Americans and Europeans, by the Bush administration and the Clinton administration, and by a unanimous UN Security Council.

Only in the wake of Iraq's liberation has it become fashionable to assert not just that there were no Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, but that only a liar would have said there were. And only now have the media, in their eagerness to discredit Bush, been reluctant to cover stories that prove otherwise.

Intelligence failures are not the same thing as lies. And intelligence failures about Iraqi WMD did not begin with the Bush administration. It is worth recalling that the CIA was way off the mark in its estimates of Saddam's chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs before the first Iraq war, too. It turned out then that Saddam was a much more dangerous WMD menace than the experts had realized. This time around, the experts may have overestimated the threat.

But if intelligence mistakes are inevitable, is it better to worry too much about potential threats or to worry too little? Worrying too much -- if that's what happened -- resulted in the toppling of one of the planet's most murderous tyrants. Worrying too little resulted in 9/11.


Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is [email protected].

© Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company


So the truth of the matter is that "Wilson lied". Apart from which, the latest Commission Report also found no evidence The Current Administration exerted any pressure on the CIA. Given that action taken re Iraq was based on information congruent among US and multiple extrarnational intelligence assessments, it is reasonable to conclude the only reasonable course of action was to take action as was done. Yes, there was a failure of intelligence, a failure common to the the world's most developed, technologically advanced, credible intelligence services. It was this failure which lead reasonable, prudent folks to undertake reasonable, prudent steps to address what they were led to believe, by the best available evidence, was an intollerable developing threat.

Of course, its also reasonable to conclude some folks won't find that reasonable.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:32 am
The "likes of me" will continue to question arrogant, overbearing, hypocritical, deeply stupid and illegal actions by the likes of Mr Bush.
Identify with him if you will. His circle of supporters is shrinking, because his bluff has been called, and his credibility is shot.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:35 am
Good post Timber!
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of the people in this world knows which countires has WMDs, and some are probably potential distributors, and it's not Iraq - and never was.
Really? Iraq never had that potential? Even while they were using them? Huh.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:38 am
McTag

I think you are right that Blair is holed below the water line by Iraq. Like the titanic, 4 out of 7 watertight holds ruptured, 3 is survivable...it takes a while.

[I don't think he will find himself before the ICC though.... but I'm beginning to think that maybe he should]

I was absolutely dumbfounded by this one sentence in today's Indy. For me it sums up all the lies deceipt and incompetency that masquaraded as intelligence in the lead up to the war.

I was invited to a Labour summer garden party today (with visiting VIPs including a "cabinet minister" as well as our very own Foreign office minister Bill Rammell) but I didn't go because I couldn't trust myself after a beer or so not to quote from memory:-


THE PRIME MINISTER, GEOFF HOON THE DEFENCE SECRETARY, AND JACK STRAW THE FOREIGN SECRETARY, HAVE ALL SAID THEY DID NOT ASK WHAT WEAPONS SYSTEMS THE 45 MINUTE CLAIM REFERED TO UNTIL AFTER THE WAR.

So it must have gone something like this

John Scarlett (Chairman of JIC): Prime Minister, it is our assessment that Iraqi forces have the capability of mounting an attack using non-conventional weapons within 45 minutes of an order being given to deploy them. I suggest all coalition commanders be made fully aware of the possible hightened threat level they could face.

Tony Blair (Prime Minister): I see. What's for lunch?

Geoff Hoon (Defence Secretary): Steak and kidney pie

Jack Straw (Foreign Secretary): Can't be. We had that yesterday.

John Scarlett: Will that be all Prime Minister?

Tony Blair. Yes. Oh and thanks for the 45 minute thingy, I'll pass it on to Alastair, he should be able to whip up some exciting copy for the Evening Standard to scare everyone sh1tless.

All: Ho Ho Ho.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:40 am
Well, Bill, let's wait until the report into intelligence failings over Iraq's weaponry is published in the UK this forthcoming week, and I wonder, who will be the next on your wish list for capital punishment.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:45 am
Bill, Every nut has the "potential" to build WMDs - you included.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:48 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Is questioning your opinion, ican711nm, now a villification of the United Staes of America?


Villification of the government of the United States of America is villification of the government of the United States of America.

Questioning my opinion is questioning my opinion.

Clearly they are not the same thing.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

It is my opinion that our government is legally obligated to the people of the United States of America to secure our liberty. It is my opinion that our government is now and was attempting to do exactly that when it invaded Afghanistan. It is my opinion that our government is now and was doing exactly that when it invaded Iraq. It is my opinion that our government should never seek the permission of other nation's governments to defend ourselves in the manner we think will probably prove most effective.

It is my opinion that it is a practical impossibility for our government to protect us from terrorists by limiting its attention to homeland defense. It is my opinion that the best way for our government to protect us from terrorism is to augment our homeland defense with our offense against as many terrorists as we can, wherever we can find them, and against as many of those who are financing, training and equiping terrorists, as we can. Our military capabilities are finite and not infinite. We must carefully select those targets which we think are the most dangerous, and get to the rest as soon as we can.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:50 am
You're probably right about me, c.i., I'm pretty sharp. But to suggest that someone who's already killed many thousands of people with WMD was never a potential distributor of WMD is idiotic. No? Confused
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:58 am
ican

You certainly can't understand this - but hell, why do you use words and a syntax, which seems to be a clone of what was used here between 1933 and 1945?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 10:59 am
Yes, but there's a but. Before you consider a preemptive strike on a country that kills thousands of innoncents, you must be 100 percent sure that that nut has and will use WMDs against the US. The problem with Iraq is 1) the UN had inspectors in Iraq looking for WMDs, 2) Iraq was contained in a no fly zone, and 3) Saddam was not a threat to anybody - including you. You see, Bush and his minions claimed Saddam had WMDs as the justification for this war. Ooops is not an option, unless you consider the innocent lives in Iraq as an okay consequence of this administration's mistakes.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 11:02 am
BTW, there are other nutties in this world that are killing thousands of their own people today. Why aren't we there saving them from their tyrant leader, and bringing freedom and democracy to their land? I wonder if it's oil.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 11:03 am
Whoa Nelly....
Dis must be de place. Razz
Must stop a moment to flame.

Seems to be those of you who disagree
With our reasons for Iraq
Are not
Fully cognizant of History
Shocked
BAM! POW! SLAP!
Ow, ow, ow.... Stop please. I give.... I give.... I give...
I give you:

HOW SOON WE FORGET
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 11:11 am
FACT

Saddam signed the 1991 Gulf War Amistice Argreement, wherein he agreed to dissassemble and/or destroy his toxic chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them. He also agreed to provide conclusive evidence that he did so after he did so.

Saddam did not provide conclusive evidence that he did so.

OPINION

In my opinion the reason he didn't provide that evidence is because he chose to disassemble those weapons and hide them for later reassembly and use.

First, more than half of us living here in the US under the gun, so to speak, were not and are not now willing to bet our lives and the lives of those we love that Saddam did otherwise. Frankly, we don't give a damn what some alleged intelligence group (legislative or executive) has to say about there being "no evidence ..." .

Secondly, You as well as we have learned from multiple news sources of Al Qaeda members in Iraq prior to March 2003. You as well as we have learned from multiple news sources of how only 19 Al Qaeda members (with weapons of mass murder--19 plastic box cutters) killed thousands in the US, and similar numbers have killed hundreds in other countries. We know that it only takes one with a bomb to murder many in any populated area.

This is not your father's kind of war! Hello!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 11:11 am
Moishe, I guess you didn't hear about the bi-partisan senate intelligence committee report that came out this week. "IT WAS A MATTER OF INTELLIGENCE FAILURE." If we want to defend ourselves from terrorism and terrorist tyrants, we better make damn sure that our intelligence is accruate. Not half ass; before we go and kill thousands of innocent folks.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 11:17 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes, but there's a but.
I find that partial admission a partial relief. :wink:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Before you consider a preemptive strike on a country that kills thousands of innoncents, you must be 100 percent sure that that nut has and will use WMDs against the US.
Really? All available evidence seems to point to the contrary... and even if it didn't; I still couldn't agree less. Wait and see is too dangerous.

cicerone imposter wrote:
The problem with Iraq is 1) the UN had inspectors in Iraq looking for WMDs, 2) Iraq was contained in a no fly zone, and 3) Saddam was not a threat to anybody - including you.
None of these statements reduce the idiocy of statement I quoted above.

cicerone imposter wrote:
You see, Bush and his minions claimed Saddam had WMDs as the justification for this war. Ooops is not an option, unless you consider the innocent lives in Iraq as an okay consequence of this administration's mistakes.
I do. I hereby forgive this, all past and all future administrations for any mistakes they've made or will make defending this country. Mistakes are inevitable and I'll condemn no one for making one.

Ps. Give up trying to defend the other statement. That part is hopeless. :wink:

Edit= I can't spell Laughing
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