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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 03:57 pm
McTag wrote
Quote:
au1929, that remark is totally out of line. You should apologise.


like hell I will. Walter has been asking for it for quite some time with his snide remarks. If the shoe fits let him wear it.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 03:58 pm
Quote:
I vote we lower all taxes so entrepreneurs can afford to develop alternate fuels or alternate power generating and alternate energy consuming mechanisms, or both.


Right, like such entrepeneurs would have a better chance of surviving in the competition with companies that didn't spend money on research if taxes were lowered.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 03:58 pm
It was a huge part of the argument for the invasion that we knew Saddam had WMD because he had used them on his own people. That wasn't just from the Bush administration, that was also from the Clinton administration and most members of Congress, including John Kerry, and from most members of the UN. And we've been in Iraq for awhile by now without benefitting from one drop of Iraqi oil. You can specualate all you want, Au, but your argument doesn't hold up.

And you do owe Walter an apology.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 03:58 pm
au1929 wrote:
Did Bush say he was invading Iraq because Saddam was killing Iraqi's? No ...
On the contrary that was the third reason he gave after WMD and harboring terrorists.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 03:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
don't you think the Bush administration would have been damned for waiting if Saddam had used WMD?


hi fox. i have a question;

how do you believe saddam would have used wmd on the continental u.s.?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:01 pm
Einherjar wrote:
Right, like such entrepeneurs would have a better chance of surviving in the competition with companies that didn't spend money on research if taxes were lowered.


No! Like entrepreneurs would have more money to spend on research and development.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:01 pm
All he had to do was put them in the hands of one of the terrorist groups training inside Iraq or elsewhere DTOM.....or fire them at Israel who is within easy reach to force our hand, or blast the Saudi oil fields, or send his own operative to the United States to gas the subway system or any other possible scenario. The possibilities are endless.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:17 pm
Ican said
Quote:
You don't think it's in your own self-interest for the US to prevent nations from harboring terrorists?

. There was no connection between AlQaeda and Saddam. How many ways do you have to be told that?

Quote:
au1929 wrote:
Quote:
... the reason for our involvement in Iraq. We are there expending American lives for three reasons. Oil, Oil and Oil.


Ican wrote
OK, if you believe that falsification, then why not recommend we boycott Iraqi oil. Yeah the price of oil may double and gasoline likewise, but you don't care because? ....... you walk?

No one suggested we boycott Iraqi oil. In fact Bush was so sure we would be getting a constant flow of oil from Iraq they said it would be paying for our Iraqi adventure. What a miscalculation that was.,
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:19 pm
WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS OF THIS OPINION?

October 08, 2004, 8:26 a.m.
Sizing Up Iraq
Things are coming to a head in the Middle East.

Victor Davis Hanson

Quote:
>From the various insurgencies of the Peloponnesian War to the British victory over Communist guerrillas in Malaya, there remain constants across 2,500 years of time and space that presage victory or defeat. Drawing wisdom from that past, there are at least four critical issues that must always be addressed if we are to create a stable Iraq under the auspices of a broad-based consensual government. So far the occupation has been plagued by mistakes, false assumptions, and incompetence — and yet we find ourselves still with a good chance of success.

WHAT TO LOOK FOR
First, is the United States winning its engagements on the ground? The answer is an overwhelming yes — whether we look, most recently, at Samarra or at the thrashing of the Mahdists in Najaf. The combination of armor incursions, constant sniper attack, and GPS bombing in each case has led to decisive tactical defeat of the insurgents. Our only setback — the unfortunate pullback from Fallujah — was entirely attributable to our wrongheaded constraint, as if we somehow felt that releasing the terrorists from our death grip would either placate the opposition, empower the Iraqi government, or win accolades from the international community. (See here, here, here, and here.)

In fact, our retreat achieved the opposite effect. Thus the withdrawal from Fallujah will be taught for decades as a textbook case of what not to do when suppressing insurgents. Nevertheless, we have reestablished the fact that we can crush all the opposition on the ground, our willingness to restart real hostilities dependent only on how much flak from our critics in the Middle East and Europe we are willing to take.

Let us hope that our planners have learned that whatever ephemeral public relations or humanitarianism they achieved by sparing the terrorists in Fallujah was vastly outweighed by the death and destruction they wrought and the greater number of lives that must now be sacrificed to defeat the emboldened killers for good. The foreign killers in Fallujah are just the sort of folk who trained in Afghanistan, would like to repeat 9/11, and are psychopathic killers of innocent reformers. Instead of worrying about how they got to Fallujah, we should see it as to our advantage that they are now conveniently collected in one central place and can be dealt with en masse. Because the 4th Infantry Division never came down from Turkey during the war into the Sunni Triangle, hundreds of Baathist killers who should have been crushed were not, and instead they melted away. It is now time to finish the job.

Second, are the terrorists — through their suicide bombing, car explosions, hostage-takings, and beheadings — winning widespread Iraqi support? Here I do not mean the anti-American braggadocio we see on spec when a CNN reporter sticks a microphone into the face of someone whose house has just been demolished. Rather, is there a large minority of Iraqis — perhaps four to five million — who are actively helping the terrorists and Islamicists? Again, so far the answer seems to be no; to the degree that civilians provide help and shelter to a Zarqawi and his thugs, it is predicated on self-interest: His men are ruthless and in the neighborhood, while the Americans are forgiving and distant. There is as yet no mass movement analogous to the Vietcong — one with a clear-cut and popular agenda to seize power and either restore Saddam or institute sharia. Indeed, the Iraqi democratic military has suffered as many battle casualties in its struggle against the terrorists as have the Americans.

Third, does fighting the terrorists lead to a political resolution that offers manifest advantages to the majority of Iraqis, and is it recognized as such? The answer is yes, with scheduled elections in January that could develop along the lines of those in Afghanistan. The increasing role of the Iraqi defense forces, the growing prominence of Mr. Allawi, and the preparations for voting in less than four months can all offer a political endgame that will soon lead to some sort of greater freedom and prosperity. That we have been inept in publicizing our achievements is regrettable; but still, most Iraqis grasp that American success leads to water, power, and jobs, and that Zarqawi's victory ensures heads rolling on the ground or spiked on fence posts.

Unlike the case of South Vietnam, the provisional democratic government is not flanked by a hostile nuclear China or Soviet Union, nor is it attacked by an organized conventional military fueled by the romance of a secular and global leftist utopianism. Not even French students march on behalf of Zarqawi's beheaders. So there is an opportunity for a political dynamic to emerge that terrifies al Qaeda: an oil-rich democratic Iraqi state, near a similarly consensual Turkey and Afghanistan, with nuclear India, Russia, and Pakistan — all hostile to Islamic fascists — nearby.

Indeed, the long-term strategic outlook for al Qaeda is far worse than its occasional macabre killings on the ground might suggest: Its victims are often Muslims, from all over the world, and are entirely innocent. So far the terrorists have not galvanized the Arab Street as much as dealt a crushing public-relations blow to Islam itself, succeeding in just a few years to make the young Arab Muslim male the most suspicious and scrutinized fellow on the planet. Indeed, in three years bin Laden and Zarqawi have done for the stereotyping of Arabs what Hitler did for Germans in 15 — and it will take decades to undo the damage to the reputations of millions in the Middle East not yet born.

Fourth, is there a mechanism for the United States to ease out of Iraq? More so than we think. In fact, the first step was eliminating Saddam Hussein. His departure meant that we did not need to keep tens of thousands of troops in the Gulf to box in a rogue Iraq. Thus, after the January elections, our goal should be redeployment rather than entirely new troop commitments: The 10,000 not needed in Saudi Arabia can be transferred to garrison duty to protect the Iraqi democracy, while we also draw down in the Gulf States and likewise shift those assets to bases in Iraq. In a larger sense, if 40,000 Americans who would be doing little in Germany are instead keeping the peace in Iraq, the overall cost to the American taxpayer is about the same.

A NEW POST-IRAQ MIDEAST POLICY
Our eventual aim should be perhaps around 50,000 American troops in the region — or not that many more present than when Saddam was in power. Even if the worst-case scenario were to transpire in January — an elected Islamist government ordering us to leave — we would still have plenty of alternatives. Beside not having to come through with the promised $87 billion in relief, we can also make it clear that an Islamist Iraq is subject to the same conditions as the mullocracy in Iran — veritable ostracism from the world community, prohibition from acquiring nuclear weapons, and internal problems from imposing sharia on a restless youth.

And the next time the United States uses force in the Middle East, we shall not do nation-building but rather serious GPS-ing at 20,000 feet in punitive Roman fashion. Indeed, despite the glum punditry, the sacrifice of blood and treasure to bring freedom to the Iraqis has been a landmark event by virtue of the very attempt. For decades, a corrupt Arab League — now unconcerned that Arab Muslims have murdered 50,000 black Africans but never losing a chance to damn Israelis for killing 30 Palestinian militants — whined that neocolonialism, Cold War realpolitik, oil, and imperialism precluded Western support for democratic reform.

Well now, Arab League, here you have your long-sought-after dream: The United States spent its own blood to take out a fascist, committed billions in aid to jump start democracy, and lobbied the world to forgive Iraqi debt — only to find either silence from the region's dictators or their active help for the beheaders and car bombers seeking to inaugurate an 8th-century fascist caliphate. The point? The Iraqi people and the Arab Middle East will soon have to go on record either accepting or rejecting the chance for democracy. If they choose theocracy, anarchy, or autocracy, well, the United States can say at least it tried to offer them a way out of their self-induced misery — but the region turned out to prefer the Dark Ages after all and must be left alone to suffer the consequences of that decision.

If an aggregate $50 billion in aid to Egypt; billions more to the Palestinians and Jordanians; the removal of the bloodthirsty Saddam Hussein and the Taliban; $87 billion invested in Iraq and an attempt to relieve its international debt; saving the Kuwaitis; protecting the Saudis; stopping the genocide of Muslims in the Balkans; and keeping the Persian Gulf safe gets us sky-high cartel oil prices and poll data showing that 95 percent of the Middle East does not like America, it is time to try something else.

I could start with the modest suggestion of a gradual cutting off all aid to Egypt, halting most immigration to the United States from the Middle East (in the manner we once did with Communist Eastern Europe), and announcing a carrot-and-stick non-interventionist Bush Doctrine II. All future Middle East military and economic aid would be predicated on the recipient's having a democratic government, while evidence of either terrorist bases or weapons of mass destruction would earn sustained U.S. bombing. Finally, we need a serious energy policy beside the pie-in-the-sky "hydrogen car" or "wind and solar" panacea. If the windmills won't spin for the beach houses off the coast of Nantucket, then they won't spin for us in Fresno either.

We can start by a compromise to drill for oil in the United States while clamping down on gas-guzzling cars. Nuclear power, more hydroelectric damns, oil shale, and mass transit may require subsidies, but billions of U.S. petrodollars are already subsidizing a corrupt Middle East, transmogrifying the type of violence we see routinely in Africa or Asia into something that can literally end the world as we know it.

THE KERRY NON-ALTERNATIVE
Meanwhile, Senator Kerry offers neither a plan to stay nor one to leave Iraq, only something "secret." He thinks a country that defeated Japan, Italy, and Germany at the same time as a warm-up to keeping at bay a nuclear Soviet Union and China must fail if it takes on Afghanistan and Iraq at once. His trial balloons so far — beg the Germans and French to come in and give the Iranians clean uranium — have met with polite chuckles. We already know the effect that such warmed-over Carterism will have in Iraq: failure with the added wage of humiliation.

In fact, Kerry's only chance for honest intellectual criticism of the Bush administration might have come from the right: stern remonstrations over our tolerance of looting, inability to train Iraqis in real numbers, laxity in shutting off the borders, failure to control arms depots, tolerance for terrorist enclaves in Fallujah, and sloth in releasing aid money to grass-roots organizations. Yet by putting a tired Richard Holbrook or a whining Jamie Rubin on television, Kerry suggests that far from chastising Bush for doing too little, he believes that the president has already done too much.

The administration's gaffes all share a common theme of restraining our military power in fear of either Middle Eastern or European censure. But once one climbs into a cesspool like Iraq, one must either clean it up or go home, and that means suffering the 48-hour hysteria of the global media about collateral damage in exchange for killing the terrorists and freeing the country. Only that way can we impress the fencesitting Iraqis that we employ an iron fist in service to their own security and prosperity, and thus we — not the beheaders and kidnappers — are their only partners for peace.

— Victor Davis Hanson is a military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. His website is victorhanson.com.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:24 pm
Foxy said
Quote:
And we've been in Iraq for awhile by now without benefiting from one drop of Iraqi oil


True the insurgents are disrupting as the saying goes, the best laid plans of mice and men.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:28 pm
ican said
Quote:
Walter, au1929 may be suffering from a personal depression of his own making. Perhaps we should show him some compassion.


Save your compassion for those who read your long winded screeds :wink:
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:34 pm
au1929 wrote:
There was no connection between AlQaeda and Saddam. How many ways do you have to be told that?

Wrong. A falsification repeated infinitely is just as wrong as one stated once.

How many times do I have to show you how many excerpts from the 9-11 Commission Report that contradict your claim before you will acknowledge, at least to yourself, that your claim is bunk?

The 9-11 Commission Report states that there probably was no connection between al Qaeda and Saddam on planning and executing the 9-11 attack. But it does provide evidence of a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam on negotiating the harboring of al Qaeda in Iraq, and we know, for example, about Zarqawi's al Qaeda training camp in northern Iraq, discovered in 2002.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:35 pm
Ican asks
Quote:
WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS OF THIS OPINION?


I think the writer is right on target. If our goal is to win a war, I am of the old school of overhwhelming force being the best chance for success and peace with the fewest number of casualties on all sides. Do you think the bleeding heart types and most of the rest of the world approved Truman ordering the atomic bomb dropped on Japan? Twice? Tens of thousands of civilians were killed in both drops, yet the saving in lives and prolonged suffering was incalculable.

I wish we would just suck it in and do what we must to remove the insurgent terrorists from their mini strongholds in the shortest amount of time, even if that means being politically incorrect and leveling a mosque or two. The writer is dead right that withdrawing from Fallujah was a monumental error that invigorated the enemy.

And the writer knows and I know that closing down the Iraqi mission before it is completed and without an absolute win will invigorate and encourage the enemy to unimaginable levels.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:41 pm
Foxy
We are there and we must finish the job there is no backing down now. As Powell said it's like pottery if you break it you own it. The question and disagreement is if we should have invaded and why?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:44 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
...And the writer knows and I know that closing down the Iraqi mission before it is completed and without an absolute win will invigorate and encourage the enemy to unimaginable levels.


I re-post the following excerpt from Osama's 1996 Fatwa to provide compelling evidence of the truth of your comment.
Quote:
Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 04:46 pm
Foxy wrote
Quote:
Do you think the bleeding heart types and most of the rest of the world approved Truman ordering the atomic bomb dropped on Japan


You are in the wrong era. There was no such thing as bleeding hearts at that time. We were at the tail end of a war that killed millions.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2004 11:43 pm
au1929 wrote:
McTag wrote
Quote:
au1929, that remark is totally out of line. You should apologise.


like hell I will. Walter has been asking for it for quite some time with his snide remarks. If the shoe fits let him wear it.


Your remark was personal and unjustified. It was offensive and intended to be so. Walter was certainly offended, as was I. Two people have asked you to apologise. You should now do so.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2004 12:22 am
Quote:

A sorry affair

Another day, another apology of sorts - but still Blair fails to answer critics over the war and the misuse of false intelligence
14 October 2004


14 July

"I have to accept, as the months have passed, it seems increasingly clear that at the time of invasion, Saddam did not have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons ready to deploy ... I accept full personal responsibility for the way in which the issue was presented."

Tony Blair, House of Commons statement on the Butler report

26 September

"I have been very happy to take full responsibility for information that turned out to be wrong ... It's absolutely right that we've apologised to people for the information that was given being wrong."

Tony Blair, interview in "The Observer"

28 September

"The evidence about Saddam having actual biological and chemical weapons, as opposed to the capability to develop them, has turned out to be wrong. I acknowledge that and accept it. I can apologise for the information that turned out to be wrong, but I can't, sincerely at least, apologise for removing Saddam."

Tony Blair, Labour Party conference

7 October

"All of us, from the Prime Minister down, who were involved in making an incredibly difficult decision, are very sorry and do apologise for the fact that that information was wrong, but I don't think we were wrong to go in."

Patricia Hewitt, Trade and Industry Secretary, BBC1's "Question Time"

12 October


"As the Prime Minister did in his speech at our party conference, of course I do accept that some of the information on which we based our judgement was wrong."

Jack Straw, Foreign Secretary, House of Commons

12 October

"People have respect for someone who stands up in the Commons and takes responsibility for his mistakes. He is clear about what he is expressing regret for; the Prime Minister regrets mistakes in intelligence, but that doesn't undermine the key point about the reason for going to war."

Prime Minister's official spokesman

Yesterday, 13th October

"He [Mr Blair] has made it absolutely clear that he is sorry about the sorts of issue - the information issue, the 45-minute issue - he is very sorry about that. That's absolutely clear, that is what the position is. We know the intelligence on which it was based is flawed and we are sorry about that."

Lord Falconer, Lord Chancellor, BBC Radio 4's "Today" programme

Yesterday, 13th October

"I take full responsibility, and indeed apologise, for any information given in good faith that has subsequently turned out to be wrong."

Tony Blair, Prime Minister's Questions,

House of Commons
Source
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2004 12:55 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Bush and Blair are not "war criminals". Rolling Eyes


no. just petrifically wrong. look. in all of our daily work we are held to account. and for a hell of a lot less money and glitz.

the president needs to take responsibility for his actions. or else be fired.
he won't do he first, so he's liable to get the second.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2004 12:56 am
ican wrote:
The 9-11 Commission Report states that there probably was no connection between al Qaeda and Saddam on planning and executing the 9-11 attack. But it does provide evidence of a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam on negotiating the harboring of al Qaeda in Iraq, and we know, for example, about Zarqawi's al Qaeda training camp in northern Iraq, discovered in 2002.


Actually, ican, The Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States claims evidence of increased contact between Iranand al-Qaeda, not Iraq and al-Qaeda. The report explicitly states that it found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, and that there were contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. The report of the commission's staff "said that bin Laden 'explored possible cooperation with Iraq' while in Sudan through 1996, but that 'Iraq apparently never responded' to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, 'but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States.'"(Walter Puncus and Dana Milbank, Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed, Washington Post Thursday, June 17, 2004).

About your non-sequitur about Zarqawi's al Qaeda training camp in northern Iraq, discovered in 2002, actually, as far as can be gleaned from the murky evidence available, the "training camp" to which you refer belonged to Ansar al-Islam, a Kurdish outfit. The probability of Saddam having collaborated with this organization is about zilch, ican. One of the targets of their terrorism, aside from fellow Kurds whom they deemed not fervently Islamic enough, was Saddam himself and his regime. Zarqawi did not found the organization--it was founded by Kurds who sought help against Saddam in Iran--he merely fell into a collaborative relationship with them. Also, Ansar al-Islam operated in Northern Iraq, an area out of the control of Saddam, and directly under the protection of the first Gulf War's coalition allies's No-Fly Zone.
0 Replies
 
 

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