8
   

Is the world being destroyed?

 
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2021 07:34 pm
@hightor,
Excellent article. It said, in part:

"It is human beings in general. Most of us simply cannot get our minds around an existential peril that is so enormous. Instead, we expend our angst and mental energy on transitory issues, like whether Donald Trump will be president again in a few months or a few years."

This is the human condition. When people were being decimated by cholera, tuberculosis, consumption, pneumonia, measles, etc., in the 19th Century, doctors, nurses and other hospital staff weren't washing their hands.

"During the course of one of his autopsies, Kolletschka's finger was nicked by a scalpel by a medical student, according to some accounts. Kolletschka soon developed signs of infection, then fever, delirium, sepsis; and soon after, he died. His colleague, a certain Dr. Semmelweis " instituted a new policy that forced doctors to wash their hands in a chlorine solution between their work at the morgue and obstetrics ward duties.

And this, says Obenchain, is where (his colleague) Semmelweis went beyond any other scientists trying to tackle this problem at the time: not only did he revolutionize thinking about childbed fever — correctly diagnosing the source of the infection and its mode of transmission — but he also came up with a solution that worked.

The meticulously recorded data and graphs are striking: after the washing step was implemented, the number of infections and deaths in Division 1 plummeted.

It's perhaps shocking to contemplate today, but in the mid-nineteenth century, doctors were routinely performing autopsies and then examining mothers or delivering babies — all without washing their hands."

This was written about mid-19th Century England, and it wasn't until 1912 that sanitation became accepted.

Same thing, different issue.

In short, I don't think humans have the mental bandwidth to confront change quickly or easily.

And here we have another global pandemic where millions of people have died - in every corner of the planet, and there are anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, anti-government, anti-everything people out there screaming, shouting and protesting that Bill Gates created the coronavirus, there's a chip in it that will control or kill you, and all kinds of other crazy conspiracy theories.

Why is humankind so stupid or blind and deaf?

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2021 08:03 pm
@Mame,
Let's look at this objectively.

In the Spnaish flu 20 - 50 million people died (out of a world population of 1.8 billion). About 1% of the worlds population died. There was much worse hospitilization. Much bigger problems with economic inequity.

With Covid-19 in 2021 about 100 years laterm 4 million people died out of a population of 7 billion. About 0.05% of the worlds population died.

The world came together. Millions of people wore masks. People got together to sew masks. Support and information were shared between countries. We developed a vaccine in about a year.

You can always look at the negatives (and we all know there is political gain from bad news).

But saying that the human race hasn't achieved great progress in the past 100 years as shown by our handling of the pandemic is factually wrong and simply ridiculous.

The human race is much better off now than it was 100 years ago. Comparing these two pandemics objectively makes this abundantly clear.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2021 08:05 pm
Sorry, in case I wasn't clear, my point was it took years for anyone to listen to Semmelwise:

"This was written about mid-19th Century England, and it wasn't until 1912 that sanitation became accepted."

How many deaths occurred during that period? Shocking, shameful and completely unnecessary.

And that goes for ALL illnesses and infections, not just this particular one.

Scientists are notoriously not keen on giving up their positions, and neither are other professionals. This, I think, in large part, contributes to the stubbornness and inability of humankind to acknowledge, accept and move forward.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2021 08:08 pm
@maxdancona,
I keep challenging this nonsense, let me do it again.

Anyone? Name a single way that the human race was better off during the pandemic of 1918 then they are in the pandemic of 2020.

Social justice, public health efforts, economic strength, medical knowledge, cooperation between rich and poor nations, living in a peaceful world... in all of these areas we have made great progress in the past 100 years.

The human race is moving forward.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2021 08:10 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, they probably got rid of a lot more assholes and losers in 1918. That would be a big plus.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 08:27 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
But saying that the human race hasn't achieved great progress in the past 100 years...

Is anyone saying this? It would be difficult to dispute the technological progress humans have made in communication, transportation, medicine, weapons of mass destruction, aerospace technology, etc.

It's not one single vector of "progress", though. New problems emerge as new technologies are introduced. Look at packaging, for example. The development of plastic has had enormous benefits in medicine, food shipment and storage, consumer goods of all kinds. But now we're realizing that 90% of the plastic we've ever produced is still intact, slowly deteriorating into smaller and smaller particles, entering the food chain, and even human breast milk and placenta. The technology which supports much of our way of life — a great positive — is also slowly poisoning our bodies and our environment — an equally powerful negative. This is part of the human story.
Quote:
The human race is much better off now than it was 100 years ago.

That's the anthropocentrist line. But the global environment was much healthier without the extra six billion humans, without the increased CO2 in the atmosphere, without the toxic runoff killing large areas of the ocean, without nuclear waste, without melting icecaps, without species facing extinction right and left.

To me it makes more sense to lay it out as mixed bag — sure, in some ways we're better off, but we (and the living systems on this planet) are paying a hell of a price.

Quote:
Comparing these two pandemics objectively makes this abundantly clear.

Cherry-picking your examples, as usual.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 08:37 am
@hightor,
Yes! I am an anthropocentrist. What is the alternative?

You almost certainly wrote your rant against plastic while holding plastic in your hand touching plastic keys. Without plastic human progress would be much slower. Think of the role plastic plays in reducing poverty? Humans in poor countries rely on plastics for housing, irrigation, transportation, communication. Imagine sending out vaccines without plastic.

I dont know what you propose as an alternative to anthropocentrism. Would you sacrifice human welfare? What texhnologies are you willing to give up?

If you are saying that we should be conscious of our choices, and make logical decisions as humanity progresses, I agree with you. Often humanity has done exactly this... with clean water, clean air, polution standards, restricting flourocarbons.

It seems like you are advocating for something far more radical.
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 10:56 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Without plastic human progress would be much slower. Think of the role plastic plays in reducing poverty? Humans in poor countries rely on plastics for housing, irrigation, transportation, communication. Imagine sending out vaccines without plastic.

FFS, maxdancona, do you even read other people's replies? I said as much in my post.
Quote:
I dont know what you propose as an alternative to anthropocentrism.

A holistic ecological perspective would be preferable.
Quote:
Would you sacrifice human welfare?

The horses left the barn a long time ago. We're are already sacrificing human welfare under the cult of "progress".
Quote:
What texhnologies are you willing to give up?

They're already here, maxdancona, we can't just "give them up". What a stupid conceit.
Quote:
If you are saying that we should be conscious of our choices, and make logical decisions as humanity progresses, I agree with you.

No, you don't agree with me. You think humans have some sort of knack for being able to foresee all the consequences of their decisions. They don't. The examples you give show this:
Quote:
...with clean water, clean air, polution standards, restricting flourocarbons.

Because we didn't have the foresight to prevent the destructive effects of our industrial progress we've had to address the consequences later, at significant expense and with varying degrees of success.
Quote:

It seems like you are advocating for something far more radical.

I'm not advocating anything other than treating "human exceptionalism" with a bit more skepticism.

When a technology is introduced the first thing we notice is its ability to solve what was previously a problem. This "success" leads to its widespread adoption. Negative consequences are either undetected or discounted because of the increased efficiency (and profits) derived from the new technology. And in many instances, these results aren't noticeable for decades — witness the success leaded fuels had in reducing engine knock...and the subsequent health effects noticed much later.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 12:47 pm
@hightor,
I don't know what part of "the cult of progress" you think is a bad idea. What "progress" do you think human beings would be better off without?

- Were plastics a bad idea?
- Was industrialization?
- Vaccinations/health advances?
- Food security?
- Global trade?

You are complaining about progress. Exactly which progress do you think was a bad idea?

I don't know how far you would roll back progress. Should the human race have stopped with basic agriculture (hand tools with no refrigeration)? Or do we have to go all the way back to a hunter gatherer society?

hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 02:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I don't know what part of "the cult of progress" you think is a bad idea.

The idea that it is an end in itself.
Quote:
- Were plastics a bad idea?
- Was industrialization?
- Vaccinations/health advances?
- Food security?
- Global trade?

Good ideas can yield negative consequences:

plastics – most grades can't be effectively recycled, the stuff doesn't break down, it causes harm to wildlife, microplastics are ubiquitous and can't be removed from the environment

industrialization – atmospheric and water pollution, climate change, industrial waste, tailings, ash, and slag heaps, concentration of wealth

vaccinations/health advances – mostly positive except that distribution is unequal and many people are too ignorant to see their value, elimination of childhood disease doesn't eliminate poverty and its destructive effects

food security – runaway urban population growth, industrialized agriculture, disruption of rural communities

global trade — spreads invasive species and pandemics, pollution from shipping long distances, loss of jobs as factories relocate in search of cheap labor

Quote:
You are complaining about progress.


That would be dumb as it's a fact of human existence. I'm simply making the observation that the pursuit of progress for its own sake is one of the pitfalls of the anthropocentric mindset. Every step brings us face to face with new problems which we couldn't imagine.

Quote:
I don't know how far you would roll back progress.

Um...I don't have that power.

Quote:
Should the human race have stopped with basic agriculture (hand tools with no refrigeration)? Or do we have to go all the way back to a hunter gatherer society?

There's no "should" – you're just fantasizing. We can't turn the clock back and it would be stupid anyway as there's no guarantee that human regress would work out any better than human progress.



maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 02:45 pm
@hightor,
Yes! Good ideas can have negative consequences. That doesn't change the fact that they are still good ideas.

I think it is a little funny that you say "runaway urban population growth" is a downside of food security. This is basically acknowledging that the way to stop populatioon growth (whether urban or rural) is to let people starve to death. People regularly starved to death before the advent of modern food security, which is why popluation was controlled.

I think it is a little strange that you don't make the same argument for vaccination. The reason that human population didn't explode before the 1800s was that people died early. You can check, the number of children women are choosing to have isn't going up... the reason for population growth is that people arn't dying early like they used to.

If you really want to limit population growth, you shouldn't be supporting the vaccination efforts.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 04:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

If you really want to limit population growth, you shouldn't be supporting the vaccination efforts.

There you go again with the "should" crap.

There are many other ways of addressing overpopulation. You're just trying to get me to say something which you can characterize as "extreme" or "inhumane". The idea of letting people die from preventable disease is repellent.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2021 05:11 pm
@hightor,
You have a basic contradiction in your logic.

The things you claim are "destroying the world" are the very same thing that are preventing unecessary death.

The human race would never be able to develop and distribute vaccinations without industrialization. We need plastics for ventilators, and IVs. We need vehicles for ambulances and trucks to distrubute medical supplies.

Our modern idustrialized world has literally doubled the life expenctancy of human beings. We have greatly reduced (almost eliminated) starvation and we have slashed childhood mortality. All of these things are true in poor countries as well as rich ones. And to boot we are living in a time of unprecedented peace greater human rights and prosperity accross the globe.

You seem to want the benefits of modern life, and yet you are disparaging the very things behid modern life.

Before industrialization, many more people died early. Look around you at the amount of plastic, electronic and manufactured goods that make your life easier, healthier and more productive. Modern agriculture, global trade, technology are all leading to humans living longer, healthier more prosperous lives than any time in history.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2021 02:39 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The things you claim are "destroying the world"...

I think I informed you of this before — I didn't choose the title of this thread.
Quote:
We need plastics for ventilators, and IVs.

We don't need microplastics in the food chain, however. Any solutions for that?
Quote:
Our modern idustrialized world has literally doubled the life expenctancy of human beings.

And more than tripled the total human population in my lifetime.
Quote:

You seem to want the benefits of modern life...

No, I use the benefits of modern life because that's the world I live in.
Quote:
...and yet you are disparaging the very things behid modern life.

I'm not "disparaging" anything, I'm simply pointing out that human progress has led to many unintended negative outcomes because of the lag time between the employment of new technologies and recognition of the problems they eventually create.
Quote:
Modern agriculture, global trade, technology are all leading to humans living longer, healthier more prosperous lives than any time in history.

At the expense of our soil, atmosphere, and biodiversity.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2021 06:50 am
@hightor,
This is a mathematical truth; the greater the life expectancy the greater the population.

There is two parts to life expectancy. The first is the number of years people life after they have reproduced. The second is the number of people who die before they reach adulthood (and are unable to reproduce). Of course, the second case is far more effective at controlling population.

The number of children that women have has actually gone down steadily over the past 2000 years. This has nothing to do with the population growth.

The reason that population is growing is that it is much more rare for humans to die young. The vast majority of children born in modern societies (including in poor countries) reach adulthood. This is the primary reason that population exploded.

In addition, our pandemics are weak and insignficant compared to those in the past. In 1918, 1% of the world died from the Spanish flu. In 2020 this number is about 0.05%. A person in 2020 is 200 times less likely to die of the global pandemic than a person in 1918 (I am considering every person in general.... not just the people who contracted the virus).

The global pandemics in the 1600s or the 1800s or the 1920s killed a significant amount of people that can be seen on a graph of global population. Now, with our ventilators, and modern medical facilities, and our antivirals... even in poor countries the number of deaths will be isignificant in controlling global population.

Saving lives always leads to an increase in population.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2021 11:25 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Saving lives always leads to an increase in population.

Obviously. And saving lives is a good thing. But is an increase in population necessarily a good thing? From the perspective of human success it was certainly a good thing at one time. Currently it's not serving us that well. This illustrates the point rather well, that "progress" is often paradoxical.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2021 04:09 am
Deep Ocean Pollution: The Unseen Plastic Problem

You've likely heard of the huge masses of floating plastic in our oceans. But these patches only account for 1 percent of marine plastic pollution. Where is the rest of it going?

Quote:
Plastic is everywhere. Whether it’s a disposable plastic cup filled with a morning iced coffee, the container holding your take-out lunch, or even fruits and vegetables wrapped in plastic — in today's world, it's nearly impossible to avoid. This material can take hundreds of years to break down, if it all, with huge quantities of plastic turning into pollution. Millions of tons are dumped up in our oceans each year.

Awareness of the problem of plastic pollution in the ocean largely was largely pushed by the finding of enormous floating masses of plastic, such as the infamous “Great Pacific Garbage Patch,” the largest accumulation of manmade debris in the ocean. Located halfway between Hawaii and California, it’s the largest of five offshore plastic accumulation areas in the world’s oceans, covering an area of about 1.6 million square kilometers, or about twice the size of Texas.

Much of this plastic takes the form of microplastics, miniscule fragments of plastic that break off from larger plastic items, like cups and bags, as they degrade in the environment. They can be as small as a microscopic virus or as large as a grain of rice, and can harm the entire ocean food chain, from krill to baleen whales.

But these floating patches account for just about 1 percent of the 10 million tons of plastic pollution that goes into oceans each year. So where’s it all going?

Pollution on the Ocean Floor

Not only is plastic ubiquitous in your everyday life, it’s even accumulating in the most remote parts of the world: it’s believed that the other 99 percent of plastic entering our oceans lies in the deep ocean, or the depth at which light starts to fade.

While you might’ve expected the surface of the water to contain the greatest amount of plastic considering that it floats, the deep-sea zone, or midwater, located 180 to 460 meters below the surface, actually contains the most amount of microplastic waste — about four times as much as that found on the surface.

Scientists even discovered the existence of microplastic hotspots on the ocean floor, formed by bottom currents that function like a conveyor belt to move tiny pieces of plastic around. According to a study published in Science last year, one hotspot in the Tyrrhenian Sea, a part of the Mediterranean Sea, held nearly two million fragments of microplastics within one square meter.

The same conveyor belt currents that inadvertently help to form microplastic hotspots on the ocean floor also transport nutrients and oxygenated water, which indicates that these deep-sea plastic patches form in the same places as key ecosystems filled with marine life. “We were shocked at the high concentrations of microplastics we found in the deep-seafloor,” Ian Kane, a geologist at The University of Manchester and lead author of the study, said in a statement. “We discovered that microplastics are not uniformly distributed across the study area; instead they are distributed by powerful seafloor currents which concentrate them in certain areas.”

And in contradiction to the researchers’ prediction, the microplastics they found showed that the majority polluting the sites they sampled didn’t originate from fishing equipment, but instead from materials commonly found in single-use beverage and food containers. Even more, the researchers found greater amounts of microplastics at the sample site nearly 15 miles away from the coast than they did at the one closest to shore. This likely means that the pollutants came from places further away, so there might be even more plastic in the ocean than we realize.

If these findings about how polluted the deep-sea zone is holds true for the ocean environment above it, it would be cause for even greater concern, as this zone is an essential habitat for most marine animals. To illustrate, the researchers found large amounts of microplastics in pelagic red crabs and giant larvaceans, two filter-feeding species that reside in the midwater and are fundamental to food webs at both the ocean’s surface and floor. These plastics can contain toxic chemicals and provide zero caloric value. While it’s understood that microplastics can interfere with reproduction and damage internal organs in some organisms, their effect on these species as populations is still unknown.

Roughly 8.3 billion tons of plastic have already been produced since the early 1950s, and 91 percent of that isn’t recycled. And if plastic use continues at the current rate, there will eventually be more plastic in the ocean than fish, according to a 2017 U.N. report. "Our study has shown how detailed studies of seafloor currents can help us to connect microplastic transport pathways in the deep-sea and find the 'missing' microplastics,” said Mike Clare of the National Oceanography Centre in a statement, who co-lead the research. “The results highlight the need for policy interventions to limit the future flow of plastics into natural environments and minimize impacts on ocean ecosystems."

discover
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2021 07:47 am
@hightor,
This is an interesting article because it tells you almost nothing. It is written to alarm the reader rather than to inform.

Here are the important questions

1. How dangerous is these microplastics to aquatic life, and what is the evidence (since this is science)?

2. How much of a glass of water taken from the ocean is microplastics. Are we talking about water clouded by microplastics, or are we talking about a few parts per billion?

3. This report talks about unnamed "researchers". Is this peer reviewed research? Are there other scientists who have a dissenting view. What do reputable scientific institutions say on the issue.

This pop-science nonsense is designed to appeal to your emotion. You read it and you get upset (and the author ironically profits from upsetting you because they use the links to sell pickup trucks and shampoo). The author doesn't really want to inform you, the basic message is "be scared!" and the few facts he includes are all for the purpose of alarming you.

Scientific literacy means you question pop-science articles, and look for actual science that may contradict it. You may find that the actual science makes this silly article seem a little overwrought.

I will leave it there....
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2021 07:51 am
https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/Image/Fig2%20Sustainability_defined.jpg

Sustainability from a resource perspective: Exponentially rising resource use and pollution (a and b) are unsustainable. We define sustainability as flatlined resource use (c) and extinguished pollution (d).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2021 08:00 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Here are the important questions

1. How dangerous is these microplastics to aquatic life, and what is the evidence (since this is science)?
Seriously: what are the reasons that you can't read scientific reports, papers, magazines, books? (The first report [in English] was in 1972.)

A Brief History of Marine Litter Research might give you an educated update.
 

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