8
   

Is the world being destroyed?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:16 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Are you trying to push as "United States is bad" narrative? Or do you admit that both the United States and Germany have some strengths and some problems.
Neither.
I responded to your post as quoted.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Are you arguing that the US economic and social system is categorically inferior to the German one?

I would argue that there are strengths and weakness of each system, and that each country also has different circumstances (history, immigration, etc.)

If you are not arguing that Germany is superior to the US... than I don't really have much argument to the points you are making.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:20 am
My objection was to Hightor's weird list of complaints about modern life in the US. I live in the US. He is full of crap.

The United States is not a hell hole. I have no need to say that the US is better than any other country (other than the UK... which really is a collapsing hell hole).

Part of this is the ideological need to deny any progress and to exaggerate every problem to make everything seem like a horrible catastrophe.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Are you arguing that the US economic and social system is categorically inferior to the German one?
No.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:27 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
My objection was to Hightor's weird list of complaints about modern life in the US. I live in the US. He is full of crap.
I responded to your post.


I don't to what "Hightor's weird list" you are objecting. (Your post followed a post by hightor, where he quote [and sourced] an article by Umair Haque in Eudamonia.)
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:28 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There is a pathalogical need to whine when in truth things are better in America than they have ever been.

It's not "pathological whining" and your choice of that description is just another example of the cheap rhetorical tricks you try to use to derail the conversation. Learn to distinguish between complaining and leveling criticism – they're not equivalent.

And, as usual, your "ideological narrative©" deludes you once again. Looking at healthcare, are things really "better than they have ever been" — as healthcare workers quit their jobs around the country, rural hospitals are closing, and I won't even get into the problems with eldercare. You happen to live in one of the premier centers of medical technology in the country with state-of-the-art medical facilities but it's not that way across the entire USA. Sure, if someone's wealthy or somehow managed to obtain good comprehensive medical insurance they might be happy with the level of care they can expect to receive but for most of us it's crap shoot.

I notice the way you, once again, isolate one remark, take it out of context, and then use it as an excuse to wave the USAmerican flag. Do you really think the US economy is on a firm foundation with our current ratio of consumption to investment? Do you really think that investing in dating apps and package delivery with drones creates wealth? Do you really think we have an equitable distribution of wealth in the USA?
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:37 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
My objection was to Hightor's weird list of complaints about modern life in the US.
Um, it's not "mine"; I didn't write the article, I posted it. (Didn't I make that distinction for you yesterday, and in many previous posts? Wake up.)
Quote:
I live in the US.

So do I. So does the author of the article. That only shows that different people can have different views on a subject. Why is that so intolerable?
Quote:
He is full of crap.

I believe you directed that at me. You're obviously frustrated and desperate to land a good punch but all you can manage is a misplaced insult. Fail.
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:41 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Again, my point is that health care now in the US and Germany is perfectly good for people in the middle-class or upper classes.

The health in the US and Germany have equal problems serving the poor. I just just checked, there rising poverty in Germany and Germans living in poverty have a life expectancy that is 10 years lower than the median (not much different than most countries I expect).
We here do think that our healthcare for the poor as is good as the one for wealthier than those: they get the very same service ... but with lower fees (or none).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 11:58 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I just just checked, there rising poverty in Germany and Germans living in poverty have a life expectancy that is 10 years lower than the median (not much different than most countries I expect).
Since you didn't source what you'd checked, I tried to find out more.

What I did find was a study from 2019 that poverty is associated with reduced life expectancy. This study (by the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research), however, had nothing to do with healthcare but that poverty, unemployment and poor education go hand in hand with a significantly shorter life expectancy in Germany. (Unemployment doubles the mortality risk in the age group studied, and poorer education increases it by about 30 percent in men, the team writes in the journal "BMJ Open". For women, the differences in income are less pronounced. Unemployment and education, on the other hand, have a similar impact as in men, the researchers emphasise.) Socioeconomic differences in mortality among 27 million economically active Germans: a cross-sectional analysis of the German Pension Fund data
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 01:59 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
This tangent is to counter the "Everything American is bad narrative".

The only point I was making is that every country has issues with health care. The US without question needs reform (we disagree what that reform should look like), but most American are report their health care is either excellent or good. It sounds like we are all in agreement now (and are just discussing minor details).

If no one is going to admit to an "America is bad and American society is close to collapse"... then this argument isn't interesting.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2021 02:03 pm
@hightor,
Hightor,

Do you, or do you not believe that American society is corrupt and facing imminent collapse?

You seem to be flipping back and forth on this issue, on one page you deny it, on the other page you post articles pushing this rather extreme narrative.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 03:10 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do you, or do you not believe that American society is corrupt and facing imminent collapse?


My beliefs and opinions have nothing to do with this thread, other than my "belief" that the perspectives I present here are timely, interesting, and explain why many people doubt the ability, desire, and likelihood of effective international cooperation to solve the unfolding climate crisis soon enough to head off a possible confluence of negative trends which could lead to economic and social upheaval. And I told you before that I'm not interested in answering the simplistic yes-or-no questions you address to me about complicated issues. They're pointless and they're irrelevant.

Quote:
(...) on the other page you post articles pushing this rather extreme narrative.


What seems "extreme" to you might seem sensible to someone else. In any case, I post these articles precisely because they fit the repurposed subject of this thread. Why is that so difficult to understand?
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 03:17 am
Fossil Fuel Capitalism Is Cutting Our Lives Short

A new study shows that 17 billion life years could be saved if air pollution was reduced to WHO standards, but there's only one way to do it – ending the system that pollutes the world in the name of profit.

Quote:
Air pollution is killing people around the world on average 2.2 years early, according to a new report. The data comes from researchers at the University of Chicago who run the Air Quality Life Index (AQLI), which quantifies poor air quality according to lost life years.

They calculate that up to 17 billion life years could be saved if air pollution was brought down to the benchmark for clean air: the WHO guideline of 10 µg/m32. Staggeringly, the average exposure for the world’s population to particulate pollution is currently three times that amount, at concentrations of 32 µg/m3.

The main cause of this pollution? Fossil fuels – particularly coal. ‘Coal is the source of the problem in most parts of the world,’ Professor Michael Greenstone, co-author of the report, told the Guardian. ‘If these [health] costs were embedded in prices, coal would be uncompetitive in almost all parts of the world.’

The report candidly links fossil fuels to the dangers of both climate breakdown and air pollution; it identifies a ‘wildfire feedback loop’ whereby fossil fuel combustion creates both particulate pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, the latter of which increases wildfires. Fires in turn fuel both pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, escalating the cycle.

However, the harms of air pollution are not evenly measured out per global citizen. Instead, industrialising parts of the developing world bear the brunt of the damages. For example, AQLI estimates that Londoners are losing a few months of life on average. Meanwhile, on the Indo-Gangetic plains of Northern India (population 480 million, including Delhi and Kolkata), inhabitants are predicted to die over nine years early if 2019 pollution levels persist. These devastating statistics are the reality of life and death under global fossil capitalism.

In some countries, there have been improvements in environmental conditions. The report celebrates China’s accomplishments since they declared ‘war on pollution’ in 2014: particulate pollution dropped by 29 percent between 2013 and 2019. These gains account for three quarters of the reductions in air pollution across the world. Although poor air quality still robs 2.6 years of life off the average Chinese citizen, strong policies such as restrictions on coal-fired power plants, iron and steel making, and numbers of cars in cities has made strides forward.

The findings bring into sharp focus the need for a just transition away from fossil fuels everywhere, not just in the Global North. Developed countries have a historic duty to assist and finance developing countries in their green transitions, to mitigate global warming and draw down polluted air simultaneously; this kind of reparative climate justice is critical not least due to the legacies of colonialism and slavery that built the wealth of much of the Global North and reverberate through global structural inequality today.

For example, War on Want and others have estimated that to limit global warming to 1.5°C, the UK’s ‘fair share’ contribution to overseas aid is £1 trillion. However, the real figures on climate finance are much slimmer. In 2010 at COP16, developed countries pledged a cumulative $100 billion per year in climate finance to address the needs of developing countries for climate adaptation and mitigation. Even this amount is yet to be fulfilled, and tracking the true figures is a murky process. The OECD reported levels of $78.9 billion in 2018, but this number has been challenged by researchers.

Meanwhile, the needs of developing countries continue to expand. India alone—the most polluted country on the planet, according to the AQLI—has calculated climate action will cost $2.5 trillion up to 2030. The most significant burdens are in energy transition and mitigation action, plus adaptation for agriculture, forestry, water resources, and ecosystems.

$100 billion, equivalent to just four percent of India’s total estimated costs, is fundamentally inadequate to overhaul the global fossil economy. The richest countries on the planet are absconding from their responsibilities to secure a liveable, breathable planet both at home and abroad.

The impacts of bad air quality are not exclusive to the Global South. Despite big improvements, the AQLI shows that almost three-quarters of Europeans still live in areas which exceed WHO guidelines on particulate pollution. And early mortality only tells one story – air pollution also impacts morbidity, the rate of illness in a living population. This was tragically laid bare by the death of nine-year-old Ella Kissi-Debrah in 2013, who lived in Lewisham. An inquest found that air pollution contributed both to her developing a rare form of asthma and then to exacerbating the condition.

Although Sadiq Khan is attempting to tackle London’s toxic air by expanding the ultra-low emissions zone, targeting the major root cause of particulate pollution means an outright rejection of fossil fuels. Transforming toxic air around the globe requires urgent action and—in the first instance—a restructuring of climate finance to secure support for the Global South. These countries are most dependent on fossil fuels and most fatally impacted by both climate breakdown and dirty air. An inhabitable earth is within grasp, with clean air so all of us can live longer and healthier lives.

tribunemag
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 03:57 am
@hightor,
The system that you want to end gave you your Covid Vaccine (which was made by Pfizer or Moderna or some other international capitalist corporation). Modern medicine has saved hundreds of millions of lives just during this current pandemic.

You are going to have to make a choice between your political extremism and your Covid Vaccine.

Modern reality is providing the world with food, and jobs and medicine. I am not willing to give that up for some political ideology. How far back to do want to go back... do you want to live in a pre-industrial agrarian society, or do we have to go back to the Stone Age.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 04:47 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The system that you want to end gave you your Covid Vaccine (which was made by Pfizer or Moderna or some other international capitalist corporation).


Vaccines can be manufactured under any economic system. It's a matter of having the proper facilities and the commitment, not the type of government. And where did I say I wanted the system to end?

Quote:
You are going to have to make a choice between your political extremism and your Covid Vaccine.


Why do you insist on bringing me into the discussion? Why must it be personalized?

(Actually I don't have to make that choice as I've already been vaccinated. And your political views are more extreme than mine – which I haven't even shared here.)

Quote:
How far back to do want to go back... do you want to live in a pre-industrial agrarian society, or do we have to go back to the Stone Age.


That's a rather stupid question. Do you know of some sort of time machine that could accomplish this feat? I think working to solve problems makes more sense than dreaming about some misconceived return to the past.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 04:52 am
An 'Internet apocalypse' could ride to Earth with the next solar storm, new research warns
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 04:54 am
@hightor,
Really? You think we could have local based home businesses producing covid vaccines?

In the real world, we had an international scientific effort with billion-dollar labs and the best scientists using state of the art techniques to create vaccines quickly. We then had clinical trials involving tens of thousands of people.

Now we have big factories that have ramped up to produce billions of doses of covid vaccines reliably and cheaply. These are packaged and shipped in little glass bottles using refrigerated trucks. They are being sent though established supply chains to be administered using mass produced plastic syringes.

All of this is done with high quality and consistency. This is what big capitalist companies can do better than any other system in history.

You want a world where you walk down to your local family owned laboratory and get a vial of Farmer Pete's Organic Hemp based Covid Elixer.... you are being silly.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 05:00 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Quote:
The system that you want to end gave you your Covid Vaccine (which was made by Pfizer or Moderna or some other international capitalist corporation).


Vaccines can be manufactured under any economic system. It's a matter of having the proper facilities and the commitment, not the type of government.
When looking in a medical history book, some might think that (absolute and constitutional) monarchy advanced the development of vaccines by researchers such as Louis Pasteur (1822 - 1895), Robert Koch (1843 - 1910), Emil von Behring (1854 - 1917) and Paul Ehrlich (1854 - 1915).

hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 05:03 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You think we could have local based home businesses producing covid vaccines?

No, but China and Russia both produced vaccines — because they had the facilities and the commitment. Home businesses don't usually have the lab facilities which is why a specified types of governments, not cottage industries.

Quote:
In the real world, we had an international scientific effort with billion-dollar labs and the best scientists using state of the art techniques to create vaccines quickly. We then had clinical trials involving tens of thousands of people.

Yes. That's how our system works. Don't forget, though – it was our government which supplied the money.

Quote:
This is what big capitalist companies can do better than any other system in history.

Like the ones that exist in China and Russia?

Quote:
You want a world where you walk down to your local lab and get a vial of Farmer Pete's Organic Hemp based Covid Elixer.... you are being silly.


Where did I say that? Don't tell me want you think I want – you don't know what I want. You are being overbearing and obnoxious.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2021 05:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Corporations were first developed under Monarchy.

Walter, do you believe that anything other than a modern corporation (or something awfully like it, such as a state-owned corporation) could produce a covid vaccine?
 

Related Topics

Israel Proves the Desalination Era is Here - Discussion by Robert Gentel
WIND AND WATER - Discussion by Setanta
What does water taste like? - Question by Fiona368
California and its greentard/water problems - Discussion by gungasnake
Water is dry. - Discussion by izzythepush
Let's talk about... - Question by tontoiam
Water - Question by Cyracuz
Evaporation of Water - Question by gollum
What is your favorite bottled water? - Discussion by tsarstepan
water - Question by cissylxf
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/01/2024 at 10:52:40