9
   

Is the world being destroyed?

 
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 05:46 am
@maxdancona,
Yet again...
maxdancona wrote:
You keep making posts to push this ideological narrative©.

I wrote:
[the thread itself is] about the basis for the current material, rather than spiritual, reasons for questioning the future quality of life on this planet.

maxdancona wrote:

I don't see what your complaint is.

I wrote:
Practically every article I post gets the same treatment – "Why are you posting this? Why don't you post positive news? This is extremism that makes everything worse!"

I'm asking that specific criticism be directed at the details rather than meta-criticism of the topic itself.
maxdancona wrote:
... you oppose capitalism and you seem to have an aversion to technology.

I object to the effect industrialism has had on the planet and most of the articles I post show why. Non-capitalist countries contribute to the problem as well. I object to the irresponsible use of technology. Don't you?
maxdancona wrote:
But it is unclear what you propose to do.

That's neither the purpose of this thread nor is it my personal responsibility.
maxdancona wrote:
Getting rid of plastics would have an inordinate on people in poverty who depend on plastic for housing, water, and medicine...

Yes. That's definitely part of the problem.
Quote:

If you were talking about practical solutions, rather than just harping on problems, that might be a little more productive.

"Productive" of what? No discussion among people posting here is going to solve a problem that apparently defies a practical, concerted, international solution. Start a thread specifically about that topic if that's what you want to discuss.

Now, once again, must I remind you?

Quote:
9) No personal arguments ad nauseum

If a personal dispute between members drags on and on and gets in the way of others being able to discuss a topic (or crosses from topic to topic) members may be suspended.



hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 06:05 am
The insect apocalypse: ‘Our world will grind to a halt without them’

Insects have declined by 75% in the past 50 years – and the consequences may soon be catastrophic. Biologist Dave Goulson reveals the vital services they perform

Quote:
Insects have been around for a very long time. Their ancestors evolved in the primordial ooze of the ocean floors, half a billion years ago. They make up the bulk of known species on our planet – ants alone outnumber humans by a million to one – so if we were to lose many of our insects, overall biodiversity would of course be significantly reduced. Moreover, given their diversity and abundance, it is inevitable that insects are intimately involved in all terrestrial and freshwater food chains and food webs. Caterpillars, aphids, caddisfly larvae and grasshoppers are herbivores, for instance, turning plant material into tasty insect protein that is far more easily digested by larger animals. Others, such as wasps, ground beetles and mantises, occupy the next level in the food chain, as predators of the herbivores. All of them are prey for a multitude of birds, bats, spiders, reptiles, amphibians, small mammals and fish, which would have little or nothing to eat if it weren’t for insects. In their turn, the top predators such as sparrowhawks, herons and osprey that prey on the insectivorous starlings, frogs, shrews or salmon would themselves go hungry without insects.

(...)

Aside from their role as food, insects perform a plethora of other vital services in ecosystems. For example, 87% of all plant species require animal pollination, most of it delivered by insects. The colourful petals, scent and nectar of flowers evolved to attract pollinators. Without pollination, wild flowers would not set seed, and most would eventually disappear. There would be no cornflowers or poppies, foxgloves or forget-me-nots. But an absence of pollinators would have a far more devastating ecological impact than just the loss of wild flowers. Approximately three-quarters of the crop types we grow also require pollination by insects, and if the bulk of plant species could no longer set seed and died out, then every community on land would be profoundly altered and impoverished, given that plants are the basis of every food chain.

(...)

Insects are also intimately involved in the breakdown of organic matter, such as fallen leaves, timber and animal faeces. This is vitally important work, for it recycles the nutrients, making them available once more for plant growth. Most decomposers are never noticed. For example, your garden soil – and particularly your compost heap, if you have one – almost certainly contains countless millions of springtails (Collembola). These minute, primitive relatives of insects, often less than 1mm long, are named for their clever trick of firing themselves as high as 100mm into the air to escape predators. This army of minuscule high-jumpers does an important job, nibbling on tiny fragments of organic matter and helping to break them up into even smaller pieces which are then further decomposed by bacteria, releasing the nutrients for plants to use.

Other insects, the undertakers of the natural world, are similarly efficient at disposing of dead bodies. With uncanny speed, flies such as bluebottles and greenbottles locate corpses within minutes of death, laying masses of eggs that hatch within hours into maggots that race to consume the carcass before other insects arrive. Their relatives, the flesh flies, have an edge in this race, as they give birth directly to maggots, skipping the egg stage entirely. Burying and carrion beetles arrive next and consume both the corpse and the developing maggots. Burying beetles drag the corpses of small animals underground, lay their eggs on them, then remain to care for their offspring. This sequence of events is sufficiently predictable even to be used by forensic entomologists to judge the approximate time of death of human corpses when the circumstances of death are suspicious.

(...)

On top of all this, burrowing, soil-dwelling insects help to aerate the soil. Ants disperse seeds, carrying them back to their nests to eat, but often losing a few, which can then germinate. Silk moths give us silk, and honeybees give us honey. In total, the ecosystem services provided by insects are estimated to be worth at least $57bn a year in the US alone, although this is a pretty meaningless calculation since, as EO Wilson once said, without insects “the environment would collapse into chaos” and billions would starve.

The American biologist Paul Ehrlich likened the loss of species from an ecological community to randomly popping out rivets from the wing of an aeroplane. Remove one or two and the plane will probably be fine. Remove 10, or 20 or 50, and at some point that we are entirely unable to predict, there will be a catastrophic failure, and the plane will fall from the sky. Insects are the rivets that keep ecosystems functioning.

(...)

Our planet has coped remarkably well so far with the blizzard of changes we have wrought, but we would be foolish to assume that it will continue to do so. A relatively small proportion of species have gone extinct so far, but almost all wild species now exist in numbers that are a fraction of their former abundance, subsisting in degraded and fragmented habitats and subjected to a multitude of ever-changing human-made problems. We do not understand anywhere near enough to be able to predict how much resilience is left in our depleted ecosystems, or how close we are to tipping points beyond which collapse becomes inevitable.

guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 06:37 am
If We Stop Burning Fossil Fuels, Will We End Up With More Plastic and Toxic Chemicals?
Quote:
As the United States comes to grips with the climate crisis, fossil fuels will slowly recede from being primary sources of energy. That’s the good news. But the bad news is that the petrochemical industry is counting on greatly increasing the production of plastics and toxic chemicals made from fossil fuels to profit from its reserves of oil and gas.

That transition is why the challenges of climate, plastic pollution and chemical toxicity — which at first might each seem like distinct problems — are actually interrelated and require a systems approach to resolve. The danger is that if we focus on only a single metric, like greenhouse gas emissions, we may unintentionally encourage the shift from fuel to plastics and chemicals that are also unsafe and unsustainable.

Petrochemicals are ubiquitous in everyday products, and many of them are poisoning us and our children. Stain repellents, flame retardants, phthalates and other toxics are contributing to cancer, falling sperm counts, obesity and a host of neurological, reproductive and immune problems, research has shown.

Epidemiological studies over the past decade have found, moreover, that exposure in utero and in childhood to chemicals used as flame retardants, called polybrominated diphenyl ethers, or PBDEs, has been linked to significant declines in IQ. These chemicals, widely used since the 1970s in the United States, were largely phased out in recent years. But they have persisted in the environment. And the push to phase out PBDEs led to “regrettable substitutions,” as the authors of one study put it, replacing one type of phased-out toxic flame retardant with another one that is also harmful.

And plastics, of course, are inundating the planet.

Global chemical production is predicted to double by 2030, according to the United Nations. Plastic production could jump three- to fourfold by 2050, according to a World Economic Forum report in 2016. By that year, the ocean is expected to contain, by weight, more plastic than fish.

A recent study by the Minderoo Foundation, which is working to end plastic waste, found that single-use plastics account for over a third of plastics produced every year. Ninety-eight percent are made from fossil fuels, according to the study.

[...]

We can draw on lessons from the European Union. The European Commission, the E.U.’s executive arm, recently proposed an aggressive plan to become carbon-neutral by 2050. It also has developed a plan to build a circular economy based on the reuse and recycling of products and to address the presence of hazardous chemicals in those products. Instead of building more plastic and chemical production facilities, companies should invest in innovative technologies to achieve circular production and reuse.

We now have the leadership to combat the three-headed hydra of climate change, plastic pollution and toxic chemicals threatening us and our ecosystems. Now we need strong legislation and continued investment in research and technology to achieve a healthier planet for our children.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 06:44 am
@hightor,
Just drop this silly attempt to avoid criticism.

You are pushing a one-sided extreme ideological narrative. You have this right. I am criticizing your one-sided extreme ideological narrative. I have this right as well

You are demanding the right to write political propaganda without it being challenged. You don't have this right.

Now lets carry on.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 06:46 am
@hightor,
I think this 75% number is a lie. I did some checking, the only 75% number I could find was on "biomass" from a single reserve in Germany.

Again... this number sounds shocking (it makes good outrage porn). I don't think it is scientifically accurate. If you have a reputable scientific source saying that insects have declined 75% globally, I will change my mind (please not I said "scientific source"... which is important).
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 06:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter's article is an interesting example of political propaganda. It is an opinion piece, but it indulges in exaggerated points and half-truths.

The unscientific claim that "there will be more plastic than fish" is a good example. This is posted because it sounds shocking (which is what makes it good outrage porn). It is unlikely that even if it were true it would be the end of the world. But this claim was political propaganda rather than science from one non-scientific paper that made some rather unscientific assumptions about plastic and fish.

The fact that a "fact" has no scientific backing doesn't stop it from being picked up by the political side it benefits and spread through countless editorial pieces until (in the minds of the ideological believers) it becomes truth.


0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 07:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter's article is also interesting because it shows the the resistance to any sort of trade off

1) If Climate change is a uniquely important crisis, then we will solve it no matter what the cost. If we save the planet, and there are more "toxic chemicals" leading to "lower sperm counts" then we have done a good thing. You can't have every issue being a world ending crisis.

2) The real world is filled with trade-offs. Yes, plastics have ecological consequences. But plastics have made life significantly better for the poorest human beings. People in poor countries rely on plastic for clean water, for housing... plastic is far cheaper and more accessible than other materials, and for many people without plastic these things are simply out of economic reach.

So we have slashed extreme poverty and we have clean water, and housing, and furniture and medicines and we can ship food without spoiling. But we have done this by using plastic.

Ideological extremes want to pretend that they don't have to make these choices.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 07:11 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I think this 75% number is a lie. I did some checking, the only 75% number I could find was on "biomass" from a single reserve in Germany.

The German survey was done by various institutions e.g. the Helmholtz Centre of Environmental Research in 63 sites in nature reserves in North Rhine Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate and Brandenburg.

The publication mentioned below provides evidence that there really is a large-scale phenomenon.
More than 75 percent decline over 27 years in total flying insect biomass in protected areas
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 07:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes, it was restricted to Germany.

An experiment measuring biomass in reserves in a small part of a single European country can be used to state the biomass in reservices in a small part of a single European country.

It is the extrapolation of a part of a single European country to a global scale that is the problem. What happens in a small part of Germany doesn't represent the world.

This is a "fact" that has been misstated to make it more outrageous.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 07:54 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
An experiment measuring biomass in reserves in a small part of a single European country can be used to state the biomass in reservices in a small part of a single European country.
The work shows a massive biomass decline for insects over a large geographical region of Central Europe.
The authors show that above all the increase in the proportion of arable land in the immediate vicinity, nitrogen and thus land use intensification are responsible for the insect decline.
Most of the nature reserves studied are small and surrounded by arable land. The authors assume that these farmland areas form an "ecological trap", that the insects cannot survive there and that the population in the nature reserves is declining.

Nevertheless
maxdancona wrote:
I think this 75% number is a lie. I did some checking, the only 75% number I could find was on "biomass" from a single reserve in Germany.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 08:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
There is no "large geographical region" in central Europe. Central Europe is about 1% of the surface area of the Earth and less than 3% of the land area.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 08:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I am curious Walter. Did you take the time to look for contradictory evidence for this study you are touting? You really should (and I make it a personal practice). The ability to question your own belief system is important, and that is one of my main themes throughout this thread.

If you want, I can give you the links to other studies. It would be better for you if you did this for yourself.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 08:15 am
@maxdancona,
I really have some problems with your claim that you are a scientist but seem to be unable to read properly.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
The work shows a massive biomass decline for insects over a large geographical region of Central Europe.

maxdancona wrote:
There is no "large geographical region" in central Europe.


Maybe you understand colourful pictures better? Then take a look at a map of Europe and where the areas are located.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 08:18 am
@maxdancona,
There are other studies with these data from 63 sites in nature reserves in North Rhine Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate and Brandenburg with contradictory evidence?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 08:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
https://www.vectorworldmap.com/vectormaps/vector-world-map-v2.1.png

Here is a map of the Globe. Find Central Europe.... there.

Do you see my point? There is no large geographical area in Central Europe. You are trying to extrapolate a single study from a small region into global significance. That is silly.

And we aren't talking about "Central Europe". That is an exaggeration (but I went with it). We are talking about three provinces in a single medium sized country. You included Westphalia AND Brandenburg??? Wow!

(actually, with this projection, Central Europe is even smaller in area than it appears.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 09:07 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
There is no large geographical area in Central Europe. You are trying to extrapolate a single study from a small region into global significance. That is silly.
As said and quoted again: this study was done in a large geographical area of Central Europe [look it up!] and not in one small region but over 60 different areas.

I haven't tried to extrapolate this study into global significance.
But I'm still waiting for the contradictory evidence for this study .
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 09:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, my point is that you should question your own ideological beliefs. As a habit of mind, I am always looking for contradictory evidence to my own beliefs, and when I find contradictory evidence, I accept it. That is part of scientific literacy.

In this case, I will do you work for you. You should learn to do this for yourself, although I don't know if you personal ideological filter will allow this... but let's try.

https://theconversation.com/insect-apocalypse-not-so-fast-at-least-in-north-america-141107
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 09:27 am
@maxdancona,
So the headline says "Insect apocalypse? Not so fast, at least in North America".
You claimed, there was a contradictory evidence for this study.

You really you question your science basis.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 09:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
This is your ideological filter, Walter... you seem unable unwilling to question your own political narrative.

I have never cast doubt on the German study. I am pointing out that it is a single study in a single country in a very small part of the overall world (three provinces). Yes, this study would be a point for the ideological narrative that insects are disappearing throughout the world. It doesn't prove anything on a global scale, but you are fixated on it anyway.

If you aren't claiming that this study shows a global trend, but is only a localized trend in a small geographic region, then I retract my objection.

I think you believe that 75% of insects have disappeared globally. Tell me if this is not the case. Maybe I just misunderstood your point.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2021 09:43 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are pushing a one-sided extreme ideological narrative©.

No, "[the thread itself is] about the basis for the current material, rather than spiritual, reasons for questioning the future quality of life on this planet."
Quote:

You are demanding the right to write political propaganda without it being challenged.

No, "you don't have to simply assume that the quoted article is a one hundred per cent reflection of the person who posted it and must be rigorously defended." I'm not writing the articles, I'm posting them. I don't care if you challenge them; I object to your repetitious bitching about the topic itself. It's the sort of behavior we expect from oralloy. "Let's ban the Democratic Party."

Moving right along:

Quote:
I think this 75% number is a lie. I did some checking, the only 75% number I could find was on "biomass" from a single reserve in Germany.

The article describes the decline of insects. The study was made in Central Europe. Similar declines have occurred in other parts of the world where industrial farming is practiced, where forests have been cleared, where wetlands have dried up. [Anecdotally I can attest to this myself – one of the traditional sounds of summer around here used to be the long drawn out trill of the dog-day cicada, (Neotibicen canicularis). The absence of its song over the past five summers has been conspicuous.] The author never claims a 75% decline worldwide and specifically says:
Quote:
Information about insect populations in the tropics, where most insects live, is sparse. We can only guess what impacts deforestation of the Amazon, the Congo, or south-east Asian rainforests has had on insect life in those regions.

Now look here:
theconversation.com wrote:
But it may be possible that insects, who have survived for millions of years through a great many biological catastrophes, are finding a way to survive our presence too.

Sure, it may be. But no evidence is provided, no "scientific study". Sure, insects still flourish in environments which remain hospitable to them. But what amuses me is that maxdancona is now making an "argument by Google!"
0 Replies
 
 

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