Killers Of The 20th Century

No problem. "Ethnic cleansing" wasn't my wording, it was Rummelt's. His website has a ranking of mass murders of the last century. What Poland did after 1945, whatever name you call it, is listed there as number 13 on the list, under "lesser mega-murders". The number of victims, according to Rummelt, is more than an order of magnitude lower than for Stalin's communism, Mao's communism, and Hitler's Nazis.

So yes, I agree these cleansings weren't even in the same ball park as the Holocaust -- and the numbers show it! That's another reason why I like solid numbers -- they make these things much more transparent.

On the specific question of orders emanating from Lenin on categorical executions, I am going on memory here on what I read in an impressive book about the civil war that I've referred to earlier on this board too, but which I don't have myself (it was way too expensive, and is now out of print): Behind the Front Lines of the Civil War: Political Parties and Social Movements in Russia, 1918-1922, by Vladimir Brovkin.

In general, though you are right about the lessened capacities of Lenin over time as the Civil War progressed, I do not believe (and have seen no evidence in what I've read) that Lenin attached anything less than approval to the persecution of all political opposition groups (socialist or otherwise) and the establishment of concentration camps for exiled opponents and other "obstacles", the merciless clampdown of not just the White armies but local uprisings as well, the establishment of a ruthless security apparatus, the persecution of clergy and land-owning farmers in the first two years after the "revolution", and of course the original 1917 coup d'etat cloaked as revolution and the subsequent suspension of the first democratically elected Constitutional Assembly and arrest of many of its members, in 1918. In that sense I see him as having paved the way for Stalin's more massive implementation of the same strategies ten years later, after the relative NEP-era "thaw".

What Stalin added was his own sickly persecution mania, which - perhaps because he was in comparison with his fellow comrades of the first generation a rather mediocre mind (or at least had an inferiority complex about being seen that way) - made him see a potential threat to his hold on power in most any man in the party with a mind or personality of his own - the cause for the Soviet terror to rage ever more inward. Personally I do not think Lenin would have flinched at "1931" - he had not shown any noticeable care about the fate or interests of the peasants when he was in charge, an indifference rooted in his ideological beliefs on their (lack of) strategic importance in bringing about socialism - but "1937" I'm sure would have shocked Lenin deeply. A distinction which doesn't, imho, necessarily connotate anything good about Lenin.

Poll :: Who is the most horrible killer of the 20th century
Not to defend one of the biggest all-time killers, but the statistic posted for Hitler is severely abused.

There were 60 million deaths attributed to all of WWII in total (that includes battlefiled deaths and civillian deaths in both Asia, Africa, and Europe). It was a "World War" with the war in Asia taking up a good chunk of the 60 million (about 20-25%) and Stalin taking up 1/3.
Realistically Stalin committed more genocidal/democidal deaths than Hitler and King Leopold II may have surpassed him in terms of genocide/democide.

Hitler is attributed to 15 million deaths by genocide out of all of WWII, not including Battelfield deaths, which account for 15 million in Asia, Europe and Africa by all sides combined. The rest of the death-toll is atributable to Stalin, Japanese aggression and genocide, and other civilian deaths and famine.

Well Rick i'm gonna have to go with Stalin because in reality Stalin (Murdered) alot more people than Hitler did and you really can't count the deaths from combat they were killed in battle from either their mistakes or their leaders mistakes, so joe stalin takes the cake for this one i believe.




-Hans

My only comment, Habibi, is that there is no such word as connotate . . . the word you want is connote . . .

Hm, I must say, relating to Rummelt's list, that I really have no idea where he get the idea that Tito killed 1,000,000 people

BTW, the list doesn't include the Turkish murder of Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century.

Counting war dead is a tricky business, and is probably best not included with those murdered for strictly political, racial, or ethnic reasons. Murder is, afterall, quite different from the deaths resulting from war. Folks are just as dead, the suffering is still great, but one is legitimized while the other is held to be a crime.

ok but say i ww1 pretty much the war was both sides fault (ie arms race) so tell me who is the killer in this war or were we all at fault. So knowing this by calling someone a killer i think it should be based on whom the murdered without just cause. also the allies particularly the Russians in ww2 raped and pillaged the germans. in fact all allies wanted their personal revenge and pretty much grinded germany to the ground (They did the same to the japanese) are they not considered killers to??




-Hans

I know that the numbers I presented aren't completely true - I already apologized for that in a earlier post on this forum. I also realize that these statistics aren't really necessary.


I know. When I made this poll I had a much longer list (including the Pasha's), but the poll could only include a limited number of options.

the 10th choice should be in your poll: All was very cruel. It given no more horrible killer.

Think we should add gun slingin Bush??




-Hans

I agree with Thok actually. They are all (and many along) same, it was just matter of opportunities. To keep things "local" if Pavelic had military power Hitler had he would've killed 20 millions as well, and if "Serbian" Chetniks had their own territory they would've killed as much as "Croatian" Ustashe and not "only" 100,000.
Scum is scum. Numbers are not really important.

I must say, however, that I am pretty ashamed with myself for not having slightest idea about how exactly brutal was "Belgian" genocide in Congo. I mean, I know the story, but never thought numbers were that huge. Of course, they are, as I said, not important, but still...

so does that count the americans and allies in present day events??







-Hans

if you think that they made planned genocide yes.
I disapprove with American intervention in Iraq, but I wouldn't compare it to atrocities by jolly good fellows from the poll

I'll be on later signin off for now.


-Hans

Why, did he kill millions of people too?

Didn't think so ...

Or do you think that 10,000 dead or 10,000,000 dead, it's all the same?

(and thats aside from the point made earlier about deaths through war vs deaths through repression)

This was respons to myownusername




"I agree with Thok actually. They are all (and many along) same, it was just matter of opportunities. To keep things "local" if Pavelic had military power Hitler had he would've killed 20 millions as well, and if "Serbian" Chetniks had their own territory they would've killed as much as "Croatian" Ustashe and not "only" 100,000.
Scum is scum. NUMBERS ARE NOT REALLY IMPORTANT."



-Hans

And I still think the same. As well as I think that USA is not making planned genocide in Iraq, as much as I disapprove with their actions.

My vote goes to Pol Pot, because his reign of terror destroyed his own nation economically, culturally and demographically all for ideological reasons. Had I lived in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, I would have been dead for countless reasons (one of which being the simple fact that I wear glasses).

What is most disturbing though is that practically none of those listed was ever brought to justice. Hitler committed suicide, Amin died peacefully as a guest of the Saudis (!), Stalin died of a stroke, Kim il Sung died of old age, Hussein's fate remains to be seen (he is anyway small fry compared to many of the others), Mao also died of old age, Leopold was still king when he died, Pol Pot died of a tropical disease in his jungle hideout, Pavelic died in Spain under the protection of Franco, Pinochet has been accused several times, but so far has escaped justice, Some young Turks were prosecuted for their part in the Armenian genocide, but were pardoned soon afterwards. Many others, not mentioned, like Mengistu, Osama Bin Laden and Ariel Sharon are still at large or died umolested like Suharto, Nixon, Gowon, etc.

Well what did give satisfaction to a lot of Armenian survivors was the fact that the three main perpetrators - Enver Pasha, Talaät Pasha, and Dhemal Pasha - were all killed by Armenian survivors; in 1921 Talaät Pasha was murdered in Berlin by Soghomon Tehlirian; in 1922 Dhemal Pasja was murdered in Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia; in 1923 Enver Pasha was murdered in Dushanbe (capital of Tajikistan). But eventually, as you said, few perpetrators ever faced trial.