RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 03:50 pm
@edgarblythe,
President Carter had something to say about how corrupt government is today but the media cut him off before he was done.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 03:53 pm
Sanders' class warfare message is unambiguous and very much needed at the moment. The filthy rich do practice class warfare, all the time. High time to fight back.

Whether he gets elected or not, I'm glad he's campaigning. If you guys elect him, even better.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 04:34 pm
@Olivier5,
If he gets popular enough to win in the primaries, I figure it will signal a mass movement that will sweep out some Republicans and put the Democrats on notice the people are fed up with bullshit.

An aside to snood, under Obama the nation is much much better off than it was under Bush. In some respects he has accomplished what no other president could. Particularly healthcare. Ending the cold war with Cuba. Getting many of the troops out of the Middle East. But what is needed next is to reclaim the gains we lost, beginning with Reagan and continuing to the present.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 04:54 pm
@edgarblythe,
His time has come, at last. It's kind of now or never, no? Everything we heard during the last few years, from Michael Moore and dozens of others, about the 99% of us vs the 1% richest; about the corporations buying votes by way of vast campaign coffers; about health care; etc... He's been saying it for decades.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 05:08 pm
@Olivier5,
I feel this could be the last chance for a peaceful revolt.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 05:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
nodding
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 05:34 pm
@Lash,
So do you agree with my assessment that Sanders and Trump are both largely protest votes, assuming that it gets that far that they are on ballots?
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2015 05:44 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/its-official-bernie-sande_b_7660226.html

President Bernie.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Aug, 2015 03:28 pm
@Lash,
After reading your last post I decided to check some polls and you were right. From July 20th to Aug 3 Hillery lost .4% on her chance while Bernie gained 1.4%. Hillery 55.5% Bernie 21.4%. You learned quite well how to bend the truth all out of shape while a republican rather than tell an outright lie. Well done Lash.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Aug, 2015 07:40 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/almost-every-major-poll-shows-bernie-sanders_b_7937906.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
Giggle.

I love that people like him and TRUST him. So nice not to have to hold your nose to vote for someone.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 03:09 am
But if you are committed to reading every post...sometimes ya gotta do it!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 03:50 am
@hawkeye10,
I don't think you can say that straight up with no qualifiers for Sanders - and of course, that may be unintended bias on my part, but there are true progressives that love his policies.

I do think this groundswell we're seeing that has him beating the universal name-recognition candidate in New England is very largely due to protest against her corruption and the general pervasive corruption that runs Washington added to the fact that he's an undeniably clean candidate.

From the conversation with people around me, and what I've read, it also seems Trump is appealing to the same type of thing on the GOP side, but it worries me that he can't govern. He just speaks boldly without political correctness and the people I know with racial issues and anti-Mexico opinions ("..we'll build a wall to keep them out..") are so happy someone has the nerve to voice their opinions. I just can't believe people are falling for his schtick. Did you read that Bill Clinton manipulated him into running?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 04:06 am
Lash wrote:

Quote:
...but it worries me that (Donald Trump) can't govern.


Seems to me she ought to be even more worried that Bernie Sanders can't be elected.
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 05:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Bernie Sanders can't be elected.

This sounds more like a belief, if not a mantra, by any day that passes. Why would you -- of anyone -- make a prediction so far ahead, with such complete certainty?

Would you happen to know the ultimate reality of Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, and the American electorate?
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 06:13 am
@Olivier5,
Strange things happen, but given that despite Bernie's record with civil rights and despite the fact that by now probably most people know him by now, most minorities still favor Hillary.

Is Bernie Sanders actually too conservative for the Democratic Party?

Quote:
Sanders defended his immigration views when speaking to the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. He acknowledged that his history representing a 95 percent white state may make minorities worry he is out of touch with their concerns. But that's only part of Sanders' problem.

Bernie Sanders is an old-school progressive who believes most of the country's problems can be traced to class and economics. Meanwhile, contemporary progressivism is more committed to multiculturalism and the idea that America's biggest injustices remain inextricably tied to race.

On a lot of substantive policy issues, this is a distinction without a difference. Most liberals recognize there is a strong relationship between economics and structural racism. Sanders favors most of the same policies his multicultural critics do and is even, on balance, pretty supportive of high levels of immigration.

But there are important differences rhetorically and in terms of how you conceptualize the government's obligations. You don't have to believe Sanders has anything in common with Joseph Stalin's politics to recognize that he is also talking about "socialism in one country."

Sanders favors a robust welfare state and wants the government to mandate generous wages and working conditions. But he wants those things for Americans, not necessarily all the people living all across the globe whose standard of living could theoretically be improved by residing in America instead. (Rand Paul gets similar grief when he occasionally advocates libertarianism in one country.)

This puts Sanders out of step with much of his party. It also gives Clinton an opening to Sanders' left, at least rhetorically, on some racial issues, which could limit his following to college-educated liberal whites. This is crucial, because the ability to reach beyond these voters and win over minorities was the difference between Barack Obama and Howard Dean.

Unless Sanders can, at 73, update his socialism to fit in with the priorities and demands of today's left, Clinton can keep him contained — and Joe Biden can keep his faint presidential hopes alive.



(complete article at the source above)
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 07:36 am
@revelette2,
He's got momentum and could be able to overcome that. Let's see. My point is that he can win. Stranger things have happened.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 07:42 am
@Olivier5,
I don't hold my breath on that, first impressions usually last. His momentum has been in largely white populated areas. But yes, it is possible he can overcome that and win.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 09:15 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Bernie Sanders can't be elected.

This sounds more like a belief, if not a mantra, by any day that passes. Why would you -- of anyone -- make a prediction so far ahead, with such complete certainty?

Would you happen to know the ultimate reality of Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, and the American electorate?


You are absolutely correct, Olivier...and I apologize.

I am projecting my assessment as fact.

It is my guess that Bernie Sanders cannot be elected.

But Lash is saying that Donald Trump cannot govern.

He can...even if badly...if elected.

Anyway...my assessment of the situation (which may be totally wrong) is that Bernie Sanders has absolutely no chance whatever of being elected in this country at this time.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 03:28 pm
The powers that be seem bent on imposing a Jeb Bush/Hillary Clinton election. How about some debates and primaries first?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2015 05:31 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/i-was-wrong-about-bernie_b_7949910.html
I was critical of Bernie Sanders because I feared his campaign would be ineffective. Barney Frank and his fellow Clintonistas are critical of Sanders because his campaign is being too effective. We're both wrong.

In my initial disappointment at Elizabeth Warren's refusal to challenge Hillary Clinton's coronation as the nominee in the Democratic primary, I was too quick, writing in these pages, to dismiss Sanders' campaign as marginal. I was mistaken.

So let's forget about Donald Trump and the Republican debate clown show for a minute and focus on the Democrats.

Bernie Sanders has garnered crowds of 10,000 supporters plus, raised over $15 million in small donor contributions, attracted over 100,000 people to organizing house parties, and is polling within 10 points of Hillary Clinton in the key early battleground states of Iowa and New Hampshire.

It's enough to put a good scare into the Clinton campaign and Democratic insiders like Barney Frank who think Hillary should get a free pass to the nomination.

And whether or not Bernie ultimately wins the Democratic nomination, he is accomplishing two important goals.

First, he is putting some key progressive policies front and center in the debate in contrast to the "moderate" policies of mainstream Democrats, the Obama administration, and Hillary Clinton.

• Medicare-For-All vs. the weak tea of the Affordable Care Act.

• Increasing Social Security, and paying for it by lifting the regressive cap on income which is currently subject to Social Security tax vs. cutting a grand bargain with Republicans to cut Social Security and Medicare

• Free higher education at a public university for everyone who's academically qualified paid for by a tax on Wall Street, not just lower interest rates on student loans.

• Breaking up the big banks that tanked the economy in 2008, not just regulating them with revolving door regulators as they grow even bigger and more powerful.

• Reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act which separated government insured commercial banking from speculative investment banking, not just putting limited regulations on these practices as under Dodd-Frank.

• A carbon tax, which is a simple way to limit greenhouse gases, while pricing the cost into their production, rather than complicated "market-based" compromises like cap and trade advocated by so many Democrats.

These and other proposals from the Sanders campaign are supported by large numbers of Americans but they are a bridge too for most corporate Democrats and have been largely absent from debate in the Democratic Party.

For better or worse, Presidential campaigns are one of the few events in which major policy proposals get a certain amount of coverage in the mainstream media. So if Sanders' does nothing but heighten public awareness these kind of policies, then his campaign will have been a good thing.

Even if these policies are not immediately passed, progressive change often takes time from the first moment ideas are proposed until ultimately enacted. This was true in the early 20th Century for the minimum wage and child labor protections, during the depression for unemployment and social security, and during the '60s with Medicare, Medicaid, and the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts.

And often these progressive reforms are first proposed by the socialist left before ultimately being accepted by the mainstream.

The second reason that the Sanders campaign is a good thing for America is that it's restoring "socialism" to a respectable place in American politics.

For half a century, liberals and progressives were terrified of being tarred with the term "socialist" because it was associated with America's Cold War enemies and political repression in countries like the Soviet Union and China. As a result, the word "socialist" became verboten in American politics.

Although discussions of democratic socialism have been virtually unheard for decades, Americans are increasingly open to the idea . A recent Gallup poll found that 47% of Americans would vote for a socialist for President if their party nominated one, while 50% said they would not. Compare that to Hillary Clinton's most recent polling of 37% Favorable to 48% Unfavorable (-11%); Jeb Bush's 26% Favorable to 40% Unfavorable; or Donald Trump's 26% Favorable to 56% Unfavorable (-30%). Of Millennials--who lived through the 2008 crash but not the Cold War--36% view socialism favorably and 39% view capitalism favorably, a near tie.

So if a national Presidential candidate advocates democratic socialism, the campaign catalyzes popular democratic movements, and opinion makers increasingly treat democratic socialism as a legitimate viewpoint, support for democratic socialism is likely to increase.

Even though an avowed socialist has never been President (unlike in Western Europe where socialist Presidents and Prime Ministers are common), socialists (and even, despite their blind spot to political repression, those who've passed through communism) have had a profound impact on the policies that have made America a better place.

Socialists Eugene Debs and Norman Thomas ran for President as independents, garnering millions of votes, and their ideas influenced progressives like Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR. Socialist W.E.B. DuBois founded the NAACP and made a profound impact on the growth of the civil rights movement. Socialist Walter Reuther helped form and lead the United Auto Workers. Socialist Michael Harrington wrote the book "The Other America" about poverty in America in the '60s which influenced JFK and LBJ to commence a War on Poverty and pass Medicare and Medicaid. Socialist Martin Luther King spent the last years before his assassination advocating for greater economic justice.

When I'm wrong, I have no trouble owning up to it. And I was wrong to dismiss Bernie Sanders' Presidential campaign. By raising key policy proposals that no mainstream Democrat will raise, and by restoring socialism to a respected place in the political debate, he is doing the nation a great service. And as his numbers in the polls keep rising, he may even give Hillary a good run for her money.

Barney Frank is also wrong to dismiss Sanders' campaign but for opposite reasons. Writing in Politico, expresses fear that Hillary Clinton's candidacy is so fragile that any serious primary challenge to her coronation as the Democratic nominee could lead to her being defeated by whomever the Republicans throw up against her in the general election.

Frank's argument typify everything that's wrong with mainstream Democrats. First, they think they're entitled to their way without the annoyance of having to deal with actual voters or the activist base of the party. But there's a gap between the views of the Warren/Sanders wing and the Clinton/Obama/Wall Street wing and where better than in the primaries to air those views? It's the attitude that Hillary Clinton is somehow entitled to the nomination unchallenged that diminishes the enthusiasm of the base, who are the people who volunteer for campaigns and are the heart of small-dollar donors.

Second, if Hillary is so vulnerable that a primary challenge could lead to her defeat in the general election, there's something seriously wrong with Clinton as a candidate, and Democrats should be profoundly worried about anointing her.

Third, Frank is just wrong that Hillary is an authentic progressive. He writes, "A prolonged prenomination debate about the authenticity of Clinton's support for progressive policy stances will do us more harm than good... Without any substance, some argue that she has been insufficiently committed to economic and social reform--for example, that she is too close to Wall Street, and consequently soft on financial regulation...This is wholly without basis."

Wrong!! It has plenty of basis. The major achievements of the Clinton administration in the area of financial reform was to repeal Glass-Steagall and to ban the government from regulating derivatives. Since leaving office, the Clintons have earned over $100 million dollars in speaking fees, at $200,000-$500,000 per hour, largely to financial institutions like Goldman Sachs and Citigroup. Though the press is generally barred from these events, I doubt that the Clintons convey hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour of wisdom to these Wall Street behemoths. More realistically, they're paying them for services rendered and to be rendered. And who can forget Hilary's vote for the Iraq war?

The Presidential primaries are exactly the place to openly debate these issues. Barney Frank is wrong to try to shut down the debate. If Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee, I'll reluctantly vote for her over any conceivable Republican nominee. But the choice to support the "lesser of two evils" is for the general election, not the primaries.

I admit I was wrong to dismiss Bernie Sanders' candidacy. Barney Frank should admit he was wrong, too. Run, Bernie, Run.
0 Replies
 
 

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