Lash
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 07:37 am
@snood,
I know What Hillary Clinton is selling and advocating: fracking, TPP, enriching and further empowering Wall Street, prison for profit; she fought against a rise in the minimum wage until Bernie and his followers scared her into at least saying she changed her mind, she said universal healthcare cannot work, she puts herself about national security by sliding by the security and FOIA rules, and she is a warhawk.

LOL. If that's what you want in the oval, fine. Plenty of Republicans like her views too. But you won't call her a progressive without someone thinking YOU are ridiculous.

Vote for who you want. Hillary is clearly a DINO, and so are her supporters.
Lash
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 07:44 am
@Blickers,
Incorrect. I knew exactly what progressive views were. I just believed those here who professed to hold those views. Now, when one candidate actually espouses those views, I see the pretender liberals for what they are. It has been sincerely disappointing. Take the name and so-called party designation from HRC and just read what she supports, what she has actually done, and the error-pocked history of her SOS tenure, and you'd step away from her on principle.

So many people still don't see how they're being played by the two-party system.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 08:03 am
Actually the first widespread use of the term "progressive" in U.S. politics (at least of which I am aware) came from within the Republican Party, not the Democrats. It started in the early 20th century during the Administration of President W.H. Taft, who succeeded T.R. Rossevelt in office. To a large extent is was built on some of T.R, Roosevelt's initiatives at trust busting and limiting the power of the major industrial giants that arose in the late 19th and early 20th century. Snator Robert LaFollette ( a very interesting, capable, and, in my view, sympathetic political fiugure) of Wisconsin was a major leader of this movement, which Teddy Roosevelt eventually opposed in his "Bull Moose" party campaign. The resulting stalemate led to the Election of Woodrow Wilson as President, our entry into the disaster of WWI and all that has followed.

There's always been a variety of contending social and economic views in both major political parties in this country, and there have always been arguments about which constituted the "true" Republican or Democrat views -- as the conflicting groups struggled for primacy. Not much new there.
Lash
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 09:23 am
@georgeob1,
Nods. And mass migrations between the two parties have happened since TR, but I noticed the actions you describe are the same policies currently pursued by Sanders. Progressive.

But, your point, to me, may be the sensible addition of party affiliation: like socially liberal Republican, fiscally conservative Democrat, ....progressive Liberal, progressive Republican.
Miller
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 09:24 am
@Lash,
Quote:
I know What Hillary Clinton is selling and advocating: fracking, TPP, enriching and further empowering Wall Street, prison for profit; she fought against a rise in the minimum wage until Bernie and his followers scared her into at least saying she changed her mind, she said universal healthcare cannot work, she puts herself about national security by sliding by the security and FOIA rules, and she is a warhawk


And...that's why so many voters love Ms Clinton. She's got more guts than
Snowball Sanders will ever have.
Below viewing threshold (view)
Lash
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 09:30 am
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/magazine/how-hillary-clinton-became-a-hawk.html

At least acknowledge the facts.

She's more likely to deploy troops than Trump. She has practice and a record.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 09:58 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Nods. And mass migrations between the two parties have happened since TR, but I noticed the actions you describe are the same policies currently pursued by Sanders. Progressive.

But, your point, to me, may be the sensible addition of party affiliation: like socially liberal Republican, fiscally conservative Democrat, ....progressive Liberal, progressive Republican.


I believe the Progressive agenda of the early 20th century had a lot going for it. Indeed most of it has long since been enacted in law in matters ranging from anti Trust (monopoly) legislation; to laws establishing responsibility (and liability) for safe working conditions; product liability; financial management of firms and Banks; etc. However too much of a good thing is not necessasarily an improvement. Tha farther government intrudes into the day-to-day decision making of individual people the more it restricts freedom and the more its programs become susceptible to the inintended (and generally unanticipated) side effects resulting from real human behavior.

It turns out the Jonathan Grubers of this world aren't as smart and omniscient as they suppose. Even the unwashed and unlettered of the world are able to see and pursue their own self interest through, and often in defiance of, the schemes designed by the self-appointed modent "progressive" cognoscenti for their betterment. Not every program enacted with (often naive) good intentions, actually delivers the intended good results. Indeed, as has repeatedly been demonstrated, the opposite of what is intended is often the result. (Government subsidized tuition loans have materially contributed to the rapid escallation of university tuition and the growth of non academic functions in college operations.)

0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 11:00 am
@Lash,
Empty false rhetoric vs, the truth, the truth being from Hillary's own mouth. Bernie as an alternative is out, what we are faced with is Hillary or Trump. Any reasonable person is going to know Trump is way worse in every conceivable way.

Clinton takes on Trump: Her 34 toughest lines

Quote:
1. "Donald Trump's ideas aren't just different -- they are dangerously incoherent. They're not even really ideas, just a series of bizarre rants, personal feuds and outright lies."

2. "He's not just unprepared -- he's temperamentally unfit to hold an office that requires knowledge, stability and immense responsibility."

3. "This is not someone who should ever have the nuclear codes because it's not hard to imagine Donald Trump leading us into a war just because somebody got under his very thin skin."

4. "We cannot put the safety of our children and grandchildren in Donald Trump's hands. We cannot let him roll the dice with America."

5. "He has no ideas on education. No ideas on innovation. He has lots of ideas about who to blame but no clue about what to do."

6. "This is a man who said that more countries should have nuclear weapons, including Saudi Arabia."

7. "This is someone who has threatened to abandon our allies in NATO -- the countries that work with us to root out terrorists abroad before they strike us at home."

8. "He believes we can treat the U.S. economy like one of his casinos and default on our debts to the rest of the world, which would cause an economic catastrophe far worse than anything we experienced in 2008."

9. "He has said that he would order our military to carry out torture and the murder of civilians who are related to suspected terrorists -- even though those are war crimes."

10. "He says he doesn't have to listen to our generals or ambassadors because he has -- quote -- 'a very good brain.' He also said, 'I know more about ISIS than the generals do, believe me.' You know what? I don't believe him."

11. "He says climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese, and has the gall to say that prisoners of war like John McCain aren't heroes. (Pauses for boos) Exactly."

12. "He praises dictators like Vladimir Putin and picks fights with our friends -- including the British prime minister, the mayor of London, the German chancellor, the president of Mexico and the Pope."

13. "We are not a country that cowers behind walls. We lead with purpose and we prevail."

14. "He says he has foreign policy experience because he ran the Miss Universe pageant in Russia."

15. "If Donald gets his way they'll be celebrating in the Kremlin."

16. "And to top it off, he believes America is weak. An embarrassment. He called our military a disaster. He said we are -- quote -- a 'third-world country.' And he's been saying things like that for decades. These are the words of someone who doesn't understand America or the world."

17. "If you really believe America is weak -- with our military, our values, our capabilities that no other country comes close to matching -- then you don't know America. And you certainly don't deserve to lead it."

18. "What's Trump's (ISIS plan)? Well, he won't say. He is literally keeping it a secret. The secret, of course, is he has no idea how to stop ISIS."

19. "Through all his loose talk there's one constant theme: demonizing Muslims and playing right into the hands of ISIS."

20. "Donald Trump doesn't know the first thing about Iran or its nuclear program. Ask him -- it will become very clear very quickly."

21. "There's no risk of people losing their lives if you blow up a golf course deal. But it doesn't work like that in world affairs. Just like being interviewed on the same episode of '60 Minutes' as Putin was is not the same as actually dealing with Putin."

22. "We cannot put the lives of our young men and women in uniform in Donald Trump's hands."

23. "The stakes in global statecraft are infinitely higher and more complex than in the world of luxury hotels."

24. "We all know the tools Donald Trump brings to the table -- bragging, mocking, composing nasty tweets. I am willing to bet he is writing a few right now."

25. "I don't understand Donald's bizarre fascination with dictators and strongmen who have no love for America."

26. "He praised China for the Tiananmen Square massacre -- he said it showed strength. He said, 'You've got to give Kim Jong Un credit' for taking over North Korea -- something he did by murdering everyone he saw as a threat, including his own uncle, which Donald described gleefully, like he was recapping an action movie."

27. "I will leave it to the psychiatrists to explain his affection for tyrants."

28. "I just wonder how anyone could be so wrong about who America's real friends are. Because it matters. Because if you don't know exactly who you're dealing with, men like Putin will eat your lunch."

29. "Every president faces hard choices every day, with imperfect information and conflicting imperatives. ... Making the right call takes a cool head and respect for the facts. It takes a willingness to listen to other people's points of view with a truly open mind. It also takes humility -- knowing you don't know everything -- because if you're convinced you're always right, you'll never ask yourself the hard questions."

30. "Now imagine Donald Trump sitting in the Situation Room, making life-or-death decisions on behalf of the United States."

31. "Imagine him deciding whether to send your spouses or children into battle."

32. "Imagine if he had not just his Twitter account at his disposal when he's angry, but America's entire arsenal."

33. "Do we want him making those calls -- someone thin-skinned and quick to anger, who lashes out at the smallest criticism? Do we want his finger anywhere near the button?"

34. "Making Donald Trump our commander-in-chief would be a historic mistake."
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 11:24 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Empty false rhetoric vs, the truth, the truth being from Hillary's own mouth. Bernie as an alternative is out, what we are faced with is Hillary or Trump. Any reasonable person is going to know Trump is way worse in every conceivable way.


Don't you think you are being just a bit sweeping and categorical in your statements? Is everything that has come from Hillary's mouth, as you put it, been the truth? I think not. There appear to be many reasonable people out there who prefer Trump to Hillary. You may not agree with them, but that alone does not make them unreasonbable. They may have other considerations, not in your calculus, in mind in reaching their conclusions.

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 11:28 am
@georgeob1,
It's easy to find that Hillary is a liar. Many question her honesty, and I do too.
A tossup between Bernie and Hillary is an easy choice for me, even though Hillary has much more experience.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 11:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
Well, that is odd CI since Politifact has Clinton's true statements at 46 and her mostly true statements at 56. They have Sanders true statements at 14 and his mostly true statements at 38. You have a tendency to go with the flow rather than checking out reliable sources for yourself.

Fact-checking the 2016 Democratic presidential candidates
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:24 pm
@revelette2,
If you ignore facts, that's your problem:
http://nypost.com/2016/05/31/hillarys-long-record-of-lying-to-keep-the-public-in-the-dark/
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Half of Hillary's statements are half true to pants on fire. HALF.
it's nice you're able to swim through this garbage.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
So your entire assertion about Clinton's lying ways is based on her private meetings to work out a health care compromise in the 90's and her email server?
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
More than half of Bernie's statements are not true, you seem to be swimming in more garbage. Why not just admit, Hillary is no worse than most politicians, none of them tell the whole truth. They will shade the truth in the way most able to get their point across and Bernie Sanders is no better than anyone else in that regard and worse than Hillary as Politicalfact has proven.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:42 pm
@engineer,
It is his way. Once he started out saying Snowden was a dummy, then after a while when he realized everyone thought Snowden was a hero, all of the sudden he changed his mind and you couldn't have gotten a bigger supporter for Snowden than CI.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
As are Sanders'. Clinton has the best record among candidates this go round with Sanders a really close second. The Democratic race has been pretty above board.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:45 pm
@revelette2,
I was in that thread and I don't think he was following the crowd. I give him credit for working his way through the issue and changing his mind. Not too many instances around here of that happening.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:54 pm
@engineer,
Perhaps, I just never could find it where he worked it through, but I miss a lot.

I am trying account for him talking about Bernie Sander lying about free colleges and now saying Hillary is a bigger liar. If anyone was to go to sites which keeps up with candidates facts and true statements they would see that the rhetoric of her not being truthful does not bear out in reality. I think it has just became a fallacy.
 

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