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Saddam wasn't half bad....

 
 
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 02:55 pm
Saddam Hussein was merely guarding (very well, I might add) against the "tyranny of the majority".

What's wrong with that? Isn't the "tyranny of the majority" some horrible thing to be avoided?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,944 • Replies: 68
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kickycan
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:14 pm
Where are you getting this "tyranny of the majority" stuff?
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:16 pm
I was under the impression the majority didn't have a whole lot of say. Pretty hard to be tyrannical.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:20 pm
kickycan wrote:
Where are you getting this "tyranny of the majority" stuff?


"Tyranny of the majority" is the vaunted evil that proponents of the USA Electoral College tout as justification for flouting of the most simple principles of Democracy: majority rule and "one man one vote".

Having a system in which the majority's will can be circumvented is justified user the excuse that it prevents "tyranny of the majority".

As you may be able to tell now, this thread's not about Saddam, but about the silly notion of "tyranny of the majority".

Foxfyre wrote:
I was under the impression the majority didn't have a whole lot of say. Pretty hard to be tyrannical.


He was doing a hell of a job combatting this evil "tyranny of the majority" stuff wasn't he?
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:39 pm
The defense of the electoral college is seen in the red and blue map following the 2000 election. The vast majority of states, counties, cities, acres or however you wish to measure it voted Bush. The lion's share of Gore's votes came from large, heavily populated metropolitan areas that were struggling financially and that voted largely Democrat as 'the party that cares about them'.

If we scrap the electoral college and go with a majority vote, where do you think the politicans will focus ALL their money and efforts to sway, coerce, bribe, buy, import, manufacture, and/or convince voters? They won't care about those of us out here in fly over country at all. All they have to do is control a few key areas, and all the rest can be controlled.

And once in office, I would guess that's where most of the government goodies will be directed as well to ensure loyalty. I wouldn't count on all the rest of us receiving a whole lot of concern. The big cities would be well represented. The rest of us barely at all.

I can't think of no better system to encourage far more corruption in the electoral process than what we already have.
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:47 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
As you may be able to tell now, this thread's not about Saddam, but about the silly notion of "tyranny of the majority".


I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that the concerns about a ""tyranny of the majority" are silly. It's often overused but plenty of examples exist. Ask anyone that lives in the least populated part of their state how things work in their state. Major cities decide they need a new prison or dump site and they use the weight of their population to force small towns to accept what they don't want built within their own city limits.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:59 pm
Craven, you forget that the founding fathers were perfect, and therefor their system is flawless. Saddam is different--he could not possibly be perfect, because he is not American.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:23 pm
If Saddan wasn't half bad, it stands to reason that he was indeed half bad, logically.
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tony2481
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:30 pm
I find it quite depressing that anyone would justify Saddam's rape, torture, intimidation and murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people as "guarding against the 'tyranny of the majority'."

What is next, kill and torture all the "republicans" in America because there are (arguably) more of them than democrats. Why doesn't the socialist ralph nader terrorize the 95% of this country's residents that think he is a total dumbass
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:37 pm
tony2481 wrote:
What is next, kill and torture all the "republicans" in America


Sounds good to me, though I'll just watch rather than take part, if that's OK.

Seriously, the Romans were on to something; feeding Christians to lions...

I'm in for a mezzanine seat.

tony2481 wrote:
Why doesn't the socialist ralph nader terrorize the 95% of this country's residents that think he is a total dumbass


He does. :wink:
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:38 pm
Shhhh Tony. There's more Democrats than there are Republicans.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:37 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The defense of the electoral college is seen in the red and blue map following the 2000 election. The vast majority of states, counties, cities, acres or however you wish to measure it voted Bush. The lion's share of Gore's votes came from large, heavily populated metropolitan areas that were struggling financially and that voted largely Democrat as 'the party that cares about them'.


I was unaware that democracy was supposed to be based on majority of land, I was under the impression that it was about the majority of people.

Quote:
If we scrap the electoral college and go with a majority vote, where do you think the politicans will focus ALL their money and efforts to sway, coerce, bribe, buy, import, manufacture, and/or convince voters?


Rolling Eyes

An easy counter-argument is that with the current system you can "sway, coerce, bribe, buy, import, manufacture, and/or convince" more easily. Just concentrate on the people whose votes count more than the others due to the silly system.

Quote:
They won't care about those of us out here in fly over country at all. All they have to do is control a few key areas, and all the rest can be controlled.


Sounds good to me. A lot better than the backwater folks getting a vote that is worth more than others.

One man, one vote.

Quote:
And once in office, I would guess that's where most of the government goodies will be directed as well to ensure loyalty. I wouldn't count on all the rest of us receiving a whole lot of concern. The big cities would be well represented. The rest of us barely at all.


This right before the world ends right?

The apocalyptic proclamations are silly. I bet it wouldn't change much.

Quote:
I can't think of no better system to encourage far more corruption in the electoral process than what we already have.


If this is true (it isn't) you lack imagination. ;-)

I can think of a bunch.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:39 pm
fishin' wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
As you may be able to tell now, this thread's not about Saddam, but about the silly notion of "tyranny of the majority".


I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that the concerns about a ""tyranny of the majority" are silly. It's often overused but plenty of examples exist. Ask anyone that lives in the least populated part of their state how things work in their state. Major cities decide they need a new prison or dump site and they use the weight of their population to force small towns to accept what they don't want built within their own city limits.


I don't see how this type of thing justifies granting certain people a more valuable vote than others.

Sure, democracy can have it's bumps, but the very idea of democracy is "tyranny of the majority".
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:42 pm
tony2481 wrote:
I find it quite depressing that anyone would justify Saddam's rape, torture, intimidation and murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people as "guarding against the 'tyranny of the majority'."


But... "tyranny of the majority" is bad, really bad right?

One way to fix it is to make the wishes and desires of some citizens more valuable than others. Saddam's wishes simply came with a copious amount of value.

The trade off is that he guarded against "tyranny of the majority" quite well. The majority could not stand a chance.

If we are to avoid the evil that is "tyranny of the majority" we could learn a thing or two from Saddam, he had it down to a fine science.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:46 pm
a dictatorship is hardly guarding against the "tyranny of the majority".

Shame on you for these shananigans, Craven...
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:47 pm
ufff....
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:48 pm
McGentrix wrote:
a dictatorship is hardly guarding against the "tyranny of the majority".


Yes it is. In fact, it guards quite well against "tyranny of the majority".

Quote:
Shame on you for these shananigans, Craven...


This is not something to be ashamed of.

Personally, I recommend that people who advocate that some people get a more valuable vote than others exhibit shame.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 05:56 pm
fishin' wrote:
Ask anyone that lives in the least populated part of their state how things work in their state. Major cities decide they need a new prison or dump site and they use the weight of their population to force small towns to accept what they don't want built within their own city limits.


I thought about this a few more times and I still can't see why this is a problem.

I mean, sure, the people in the minority who got outvoted might have a problem with it but that is how democracy is supposed to work.

The majority is supposed to have their way. Every man's vote is supposed to be equal.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 06:09 pm
I agree. The flaws in the system that are being expressed are really percieved flaws with democracy.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 06:14 pm
Yep, that's the point I am getting at.

Inherent to a democratic system is the fact that it sometimes sucks to be in the minority. That's the very idea of democracy and trying to correct this by granting the minority a more powerful vote is the antithesis to democracy.
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