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I guess where I differ from the way that some of you think is this:

Yes, there are situations where it's simply one or the other trying to be a control freak. And the one being controlled will learn to become disgusted enough to take a hike.

BUT.....there are too many warning signs in this situation to take it lightly.
The Classic pattern of abuse is written in Deb's story. Almost to the "T" with every "I" dotted.

And if you look past the mere words you see much more of the ugliness.

Yes he's only 21. And yes, he has alot of growing to do. And hard lessons yet to be learned. But if there is even a small chance that this relationship is of the domestic violence stature....then he desperately needs help. And a black eye qualifies as violence. And as this type of relationship goes on it can leave deep ugly scars inside the heart. Some people can deal with scars of the heart and go forward and live a wonderful life. I like to think that I am one of those people that can do that. But not everyone CAN! Can he? Even worse then the inner scars.....is the fact that DV can kill. There is no prejudice in domestic violence. It strikes all ages, all sizes, all colors, and all sexes.

If he were my child.......I would be worried.

~Brooke

Having mad respect for both Phoenix and Brooklyn, I'm going to go ahead and assume I'm missing something here. It could be my chauvinism. God knows if you were talking about your daughter instead of your son, I'd be recommending a posse of male family members to instill the fear of God in the evil bastard. I guess I just can't get my head around the idea that a woman can physically abuse a man. I had one try it once, and she actually bloodied my nose and cut my mouth in 2 places, but I never took it too seriously. She felt horrible about it, because I didn't respond in kind. BTW, that was an isolated incident in the middle of a 7-year relationship… and it never happened again. Physically, I've never dated a woman I couldn't take a punch from and I guess that's why I consider it different. Typically, a man would literally have to volunteer to be beaten by a woman or she simply couldn't do it……… Upon further thought, I guess a woman pretty much does the same thing from the second beating on, so maybe it's not so different? Since I'm lost on that aspect, I would have to encourage you to consider other's opinions.

Oh, I have no problem with the concept of female-on-male domestic violence. I know it exists.

My points are:

1.) IF it is not out-and-out domestic violence, rather than a drama queen, it is not necessarily a sign of pathology for debra's son to be attracted. Many young people of both genders go through that, being attracted to someone who is exciting but emotionally unhealthy.

2.) HOWEVER, he is obviously having a hard time extricating himself, so I think therapy could help.

3.) If it IS domestic violence -- the black eye -- which, again, I could definitely believe -- I think the best way for debra's son to deal with it is to get counseling on his own. I think that debra can be loving and supportive and raise her concerns and offer resources, but ultimately it is up to him.

My overriding point is, there isn't enough information to know for sure what the situation it is -- garden-variety drama queen (again, there are a LOT out there, all the stuff you've described, I've known them and virtually every man I know has encountered one at some point) or actual abuser -- but I'm not sure it matters, since my advice is the same either way. That debra's son would benefit from seeing a counselor.

If your son can get to going to therapy for himself, that would probly be very good.

Not cause he's sick or anything - not cause there's necessarily any reason to think the way he falls for this girl suggests something pathological on his part. Could be, of course, but not necessarily.

Think of the threapy not as a "curing" thing but an "empowering" thing. He'll get to talk with a wise person about his feelings, fears and insecurities around this relationship, who is totally independent. He probably wont feel totally free to talk with you about everything - if only cause he wouldnt want you to start hating his loved one - and the same goes for his friends, let alone any mutual friends they have.

Talking with an expert might help him understand why he feels like "he didn't know how he could make it if she wasn't in his life". I mean, thats a normal way for a young guy in love to feel, obviously. But for an already passive, mild (perhaps overly mild) guy without, apparently, much of a tradition of a great social life that would make him feel confident and independent, its a tricky, risky way to feel, especially about a relationship that sounds pretty bad for him.

The advice he can get from a therapist - about how he feels (and does not need to feel) about himself, about how to deal with someone close by who behaves like that, about the risk of feeling like there's no way out or he wont make it by himself, etc - it can give him the tools to be strong enough to make his own decisions. If even with those tools he still decides to stay in the end, it will be in full awareness of what he's getting into - whereas now, he sounds (understandably) insecuritized and/or desperatly clueless.

Just in case Phoenix is right, the book she linked might make a good present. They say its pretty good. On that score, there's an additional alternative too: there's groups of people who have a partner or family member with such problems and who help each other (helped out by a therapist). Can be very helpful. (Of course, with that one would come the problem of telling her where he's going - "well, honey, I'm off to meet other people who have a borderline partner cause thats what I think you are" is probably not what he's looking for).

There might be any kind of thing with her - borderline's just one word (and a container one at that). But its easy to understand why he feels totally out of his depth. If he's lucky, like Bill is suggesting or like what NickFun says, he realises quickly enough, gets out of it and over it and ends up having had a growth experience. But if not - if the whole thing plays on some kind of stuff he has going on himself (lack of self-worth or whatever) - than he might end up in serious trouble himself. You can end up feeling pretty lonely, and even like its all your fault, or that you deserve it, or whatever. Therapist can help you sail around those rocks (better too early than too late, after all).

As for what you can do, except pass on the reading and/or therapy suggestion (perhaps offer to cover the therapy if he cant afford it) ... well, nothing much I guess. Keep in contact, keep an eye out, make him feel like theres always a safe, welcome refuge. Always be there for a talk but dont blame him or make him feel guilty about his choices. Just spread a sense that he's worth good stuff in life. Dont make her out to be an evil person either, shes probably just a victim herself, its just that its his well-being you're concerned about. What more can you do than encourage him to feel good about himself and make independent choices?

My 2 cents ...

Whoa ... I started writing the above after reading up to stuh505's post ... looks like by now, theres been a flurry of further posts up here ... dunno if that means the context's changed by now.

Brooke's post sounds good, too. I just have two hesitancies about it.

One, the slope from problematic relationship to abuse is not black/white. Your son's gf sounds like he's bad for him, but there's a range of stuff between having a partner with a lot of problems that sometimes turn against you (and you'd better be psychologically strong enough to deal with them) - and outright, full-throttle abuse and domestic violence.

Two (on a related note, really), its good to be aware and informed and keep an eye out - but Id be a little anxious about hitting on him too much. If he's going to find his own way out or through this, perhaps with the help of a therapist, what he'll probably be needing is someone who listens and is there for him. Not someone who's all the time trying to tell him what she read about what could be going on, what the people at the shelter told her about "how such people are", how she is obviously doing this and that to him, how he should come along for a visit to the DV shelter to see how all this could end up - well, etc, etc.

Preaching to him, pushing him to leave that person or otherwise trying to convince him she's bad (or convince him of anything, really) - that just means he wont ask you anymore, and wont be able to talk with you anymore, really.

My father used to always be full of advice, and whenever I told him something he would have an opinion about what it meant and how it probably worked and what it said about my or the other persons psychological stuff, etc ... so I never told him much, really. <shrugs>

http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Scott/genderbias.htm



Bill et al. And herein lies the problem. Women can and DO physically abuse men. In the case of my son, his ex-wife would deliver the first blow. When he defended himself, she would carry on and start to scream that he was beating her. Many times the cops were called, by the neighbors.

At one point, she took out a restraining order,and threw my son out of their apartment. She and her ex-con boyfriend sold all of my son's valuables.

Eventually, the restraining order was dropped, and my son got custody of my granddaughter, when the judge realized that my ex dil could not keep a straight story. The judge actually called her a liar in open court.

It was only after the fact, that my son had admitted to me that he had been physically abused by his ex-wife. He had been too ashamed to even speak about it.



Check out this site:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Bill,

Your way of thinking is very understandable, as not too many can understand the aspect of females abusing males. After all, we are notably the weaker sex.


If he had called the cops it would have been a domestic violence charge. The chances of someone being violent a second episode is very high. And part of the problem with people falling into the "habit" of allowing this to happen to them, is that they let the "first" one slide. To my way of thinking it does not have to go "full throttle" as you say, to be taken seriously. She has already proven what she is capable of when provoked. Sadly.....if more people would report these bully's (male or female) there wouldn't be so many people walking around thinking it's ok. That they can get away with it.

It was way more then the black eye that worries me. It is her insane jealousy. Note that she is not just a little jealous. She is engraged by it. Her jealousy owns her. She has no control. To go on for hours in a jealous rage over a crush that happened 3 years ago is insane in itself. Again.....I STRESS....this is typical of an abuser.

She is already trying to isolate him. He can't spend time with friends. She is afraid of what might happen if he does. She can have friends but he can't. AGAIN.....typical of an abuser.



Thats why I said she needs to use subtleness with him. I agree with you that would not be good. But if his Mother can't get him to the shelter .....then her own education will go a long way in helping her to learn the signs of abuse. To understand what happens to the victims and why the victim reacts to the situation the way they do. She can use that information to subtly help him. Not through telling him what she has learned. BUT in learning how to softly wrap her love around him to give him a sort of warm blanket to find some solace from. To learn how important it is to help him feel good about himself again. To learn what she can do to help him build his self esteem back up. Self esteem can be very important in decisions that we make in life. Domestic Violence included And once a victim has found their self esteem again.....the abuser suddenly isn't so powerful anymore. It's not so easy for an abuser to continue when there is a change in who holds the "power" :wink:

And Debra? I do alot of volunteer work for a Domestic Violence shelter. And just so you know...our arms are open wide for anyone that asks for help. Even if it's not the victim.....but just someone who cares. Who loves them. As you love your Son.

~Brooke

Brooke- Beautifully said!

Well, color me an ignorant chauvinist. If my best friend came to me, right now, and said his wife was physically abusing him ; I'm pretty sure I'd laugh my ass off. If he were sporting a black eye to prove it, I'd likely be rolling on the floor in tears... boy that would be a hoot! Obviously I'd recommend he leave her, but I'd be laughing like nuts the whole time (I am right now, just picturing it) .

I don't mean to be insensitive (it comes quite naturally you know). I just don't think it's the same crime. I've heard women say they are terrified to leave, or talk, or not talk or do anything that might set off their abusive husbands. THAT must be one of the worst feelings a human can experience. Considering your average man would likely not be so severely overmatched by his partner, to feel such intimidation, I just don't find the actual act as horrible.

When my girlfriend was punching me in the face; I wasn't taking it for fear of what would happen if I didn't. I could have restrained her, or walked away at any given moment; I CHOSE not to. When the shoe is on the other foot; a woman can do very little to stop the offending man. I consider that difference paramount and I guess it is the reason for my chauvinism.

I try hard to think PC but honestly, I can't shake the idea that an abused man is either a wussy, an idiot or both. I'm sorry. That's probably not much help.

BTW, Brooke, you are wonderful. (((((Brooklyn)))))

Bill- No, you are not an ignorant chauvinist................you are a guy who has been taken in by the dominant attitude that pervades society. But why would you laugh when you found that your friend had been physically hurt? That is no laughing matter.

Part of the problem is that normal men do not hit women. When men are attacked, many will not react in kind ...............for fear of inflicting greater injury on the woman. The controlling women USE the man's natural reticence against the men.

Thank you, everyone!
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Thing is - I mean, what I see - what Debra describes here about this girl's behaviour sounds fairly typical for how people with certain kinds of disorders etc behave. Its not pretty and it can make your life hell, true. In theory, there are ways to deal with it, difficult ways, ways that take a lot of effort, ways that will only work if the person in question is aware of the problems him/herself, etc. I'm not saying that Debra's son should go through any of that. From what she describes there's no chance for any of that. I'm just saying that calling the cops on her and taking him to the DV shelter might be ... more than what is called for, in a situation where someone is having great difficulties dealing with a partner with great problems.

If he threatens to psychologically 'go under', if he has trouble extricating himself from the insecuritizing confusion that emanates from the situation (and might overwhelm him totally), then all help is welcome. Thats why I'm saying a therapist might really help, empower him to deal with the situation. Deal with it either by managing to leave - without feeling guilt or shame - or somehow stay for now but not let himself be made crazy.

What you "STRESS.... [..] is typical of an abuser", is also typical of a victim. Of someone who in a way is sick. Now it is NOT up to Debra's son to cure her. He wont be able to. Thats why probably ... he'll need to extricate himself from it. And he'll need Debra to be there to help. But calling her an abuser and a bully and - just leaving it there - <shrugs> in my experience not constructive.

Debra_Law- I certainly can feel for what you are going through. It sounds like he needs to develop more productive social skills, so that he will not feel so alone when the relationship goes sour.

Apparently, this woman has filled an important niche in his life....so important that he would be willing to drown himself in a terribly dysfunctional relationship. IMO he needs to learn for himself that he deserves much, much better, and is quite able to get better. Good luck to you both!

Oh god this thread is going fast - i'm about half a dozen posts late again!

I'm glad this thread could be of some help, Debra, that would be wonderful.

I don't know, I just would. If I had to explain to him that my chick kicked my ass, I'd be laughing just as hard.
Black eye on a woman: puts me in a murderous rage.
Black eye on a man: Time to break some balls.
I can't explain why any better than I already have.

Being utterly incapable of striking a woman, I could be that victim... Once. If it happens again; shame on me.

The only time the police were ever called to my home for a domestic dispute was when my psycho-ex was moving out. I anticipated she might try to do something stupid, or say I did, so I called the police before I even left work and had them meet me at home. They were only too happy to do so. Result, no problems.

Debra_Law: I repeat; you sound like a wonderful parent. Offer him dough to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is sure to help him come to terms with who he is. Great idea to show him this thread as well. If he likes the A2K crowd he can get some practice communicating here... the chicks here love to flirt, and they are mostly super sweet.
And welcome to A2K!

Nimh, and this is tangential to the thread topic, I am touched by your description of your father full of advice for you. I see both sides, eh, all around, about that one. [Even now, I can barely tell my business partner anything, without a curt "I know". We all have our needs to stand as independent beings.] I can see being him and being you. Nimh, I am old enough to be your mother, but I think of you absolutely as a peer, except that you are probably smarter. Still, I have to blink at the description of your dad trying to work things out for you.

I have a sort of unusual relationship with my niece in that I am the wise aunt she doesn't see much, who listens and for the most part empathizes, and I tell you, it is damn uncanny to hear myself quoted by her for something I must have said four years ago...in a positive way. I don't think this is because I am so great as that I am not emotionally tied to the immediate power things that are involved in being a parent or child. Even if the parent is trying to let down the wise-person fences and admit puzzlement or at least not allknowingness, many sons and daughters need to be the ones to work it out. I am not a parent, though I was surely a child, and see it is all very tricky.

But wow, I see it can be hard to be quiet as a parent.

And in this case, I see Brooke's view and see - but don't buy - Bill's.

I was an only child without much social experience and no damn practice in argueing, and somewhat of a mess re self esteem too. I gathered up my selfesteem tendrils and gained assertiveness by a lot of reading and a lot of working with different people on jobs.. which is to say, life experience. I can see a thoughtful quiet young person being really thrown by this kind of thing.

Soooo, I sure agree with the son seeing a MFCC counselor, or similarly experienced therapist... so at least he can bat things around with a thoughtful party who doesn't happen to be a parent or girlfriend.

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I must agree with Bill. I think the reason physical abuse is treated so seriously is because if a man has a violent temper he could very easily cause serious harm to a woman...but i think in the case of women causing abuse, the worst they will be doing is emotional damage...which is not nearly as urgent to get help with. So I personally feel you could let some more evidence build up before jumping to any conclusions.

delete, thinking