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Sat 28 Feb, 2015 10:31 pm
Please help! I wrote a radio commercial for a client, and now the Account Rep is telling me I need to remove the word "the" from in front of their name. The name of the client (changed to protect identities) is "Council on Tourism."
One of the lines in question has a character saying, "I work for the Council on Tourism...," but he says "the" isn't part of their name so it has to go. I say it sounds wrong without it, and that it may not be part of their name (hence it being lower case) but it IS proper grammar & the way that people will say it, whether or not it's technically part of the name.
Who's right, and why?
@greenpeace,
Quote: I say it sounds wrong without it, and that it may not be part of their name (hence it being lower case) but it IS proper grammar & the way that people will say it, whether or not it's technically part of the name.
YOU are right.
Because, well, uh, because....
What you said.
@layman,
You're right for all the above reasons - even if The is not part of the formal name.
"Proper" grammar and orthography (e.g. use of definite articles) is sometimes ignored in the case of proper names of companies, brands, organisations, government bodies, etc, especially if the organisation is well known in its locality or field of business. For example if I worked for (the) Manchester City Council I would say "I work for Manchester City Council". I would say "The BBC" however, since it is part of the organisation's official name. You may be "right" in a strict schoolroom sense, but since you are working for a client, the prudent option may be to accept the client's direction.
@greenpeace,
'Council on Tourism' is the complete proper noun. We don't use articles in front of proper nouns. You wouldn't say 'the Tom Smith.'
@contrex,
OK, in a certain context someone might say something like: "You're Tom Smith?
The Tom Smith? Our CEO?"
That's, I suppose, an idiomatic request for clarity or an expression of surprise, but not standard usage outside that context.
@FBM,
FBM wrote:OK, in a certain context someone might say something like: "You're Tom Smith? The Tom Smith? Our CEO?"
Yes, and in speech (at least where I come from, the UK) 'the' used as above is always pronounced as if followed by a vowel (even when it is not), that is, "thee" and not 'thuh', and it is usually said with emphasis.
Thuh North Pole
Thee Atlantic Ocean
Is he THEE James Blunt? (No: OK then, yes: quick, kill him before he can make another damn record!)
Do you work for THEE NASA? (No, I work for Northern Alabama Shoe Alliance; yes, I'm an astronaut)
@contrex,
Incidentally, we 'murkins (some of us, anyway) are pretty lazy about distinguishing between 'thuh' and 'thee' based on whether the following word begins with a consonant or vowel sound. At least in dialect, that's true. The slack-jawed yokels I grew up around would say 'thuh Atlantic.' Yee haw!
@FBM,
Quote:'Council on Tourism' is the complete proper noun. We don't use articles in front of proper nouns.
Sure we do. Who says "I'm gunna go watch Chicago Bears?"
Everybody knows its "Da Bears."
Depending on context, of course. Sometimes it's "dem Bears."
How about dem Bears?
@greenpeace,
you're wrong. Proper grammar is not relevant when it comes to a legal name of the company. If the name is council of tourism, to call it something else is inappropriate. The customer is always right.
@layman,
Their official website calls them "THE CHICAGO BEARS."
http://www.chicagobears.com/index.html
@Ragman,
Quote:The customer is always right.
We're talking about advertising here, not grammar.
What the customer doesn't seem to understand is that "the Council" sounds much more important and prestigious than Council.
Makes it sounds like its the one and only, universally recognized council if you say "the council." Without the "the" it such sounds like another one of dozens of commercial enterprises that want to play would-be tourists for chumps, eh?
@layman,
You seem to be in conflict with yourself.
Here is what I disagree with:
Quote:
What the customer doesn't seem to understand is that "the Council" sounds much more important and prestigious than Council.
As former technical writer at a large computer company, I disagree.
We (writers) and editing department dealt with this in forming documentation standards fairly often. The consensus was to eliminate an article 'the' before a legal name of an organization or corporation.
I'm confused what you're saying here as I stated it in my previous reply:
Quote:Proper grammar is not relevant when it comes to a legal name of the company.
@FBM,
Quote:Their official website calls them "THE CHICAGO BEARS."
Right, because that's what everybody calls them. But the copyrights, etc. are not granted under that name. That's not the legal name.
© Chicago Bears. All rights reserved.
@Ragman,
Quote:I'm confused what you're saying here as I stated it in my previous reply:
Quote:
Proper grammar is not relevant when it comes to a legal name of the company.
Just sayin that grammar, proper or improper, ain't the question when it comes to advertising. It's chumpin the chumps, that's all.
Thing is, there are a variety of conventions for a variety of contexts. Journalism, headlines and titles vs body text, legal documents, advertising, academia, vernacular, spoken, written, slang, idiomatic expressions, emphatic expressions, etc etc. It's not like there is only one way to skin that cat. After almost two decades of teaching Engrishee in Korean universities, I tend to agree with the attitude that if the customer demands it be a certain way, what the hell. Give them what they want. If they insist on printing an error, **** it. Let 'em. It was their decision. Just document it so that it doesn't come back and bite you in the ass later.
@layman,
Once more, I had written that point in my reply. It's unclear which way you're advocating.
The advertising business and proper grammar are not on same path.
@Ragman,
Quote:It's unclear which way you're advocating.
Ragman, you were distinguishing between grammar and what the customer wants.
I was distinguishing between what the customer wants, and what a professional huckster knows works best.
@layman,
oh, I see. However the point is an advertising department has to answer to legal department and avoid misrepresenting the name of a corporation. Trademarks and legal overrides whimsy.
Here's a real world example:
Look at any Microsoft ads. Ever see them call themselves the Microsoft Corp? or IBM. Find any ad that is self-referential and then show me where the put a THE in front of their name when it's not part of their legal name.
I'll help you out, here's their Wiki (website page). Notice how they refer to themselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft
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