46
   

Turning The Ballot Box Against Republicans

 
 
emmett grogan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:31 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
if you had served as you have indicated that you have, then you know you promised to defend the Constitution, not defend it for only those people who you agree with. The 1st Amendment applies to everyone in the US and as a vet you promised to defend people's rights, not assault them because you don't like what they have to say.


Double BULLSHIT!

I enlisted and when I did I specifically signed away MY rights to the Bill of Rights (as you did too) to come under the UCMJ. So I could defend the rights of others. I agreed to defend free speech. I NEVER agreed to defend unprotected speech freely made or not. And the fact that you cannot distinguish the difference between protected free speech and freely made unprotected hate speech is stunning. It makes me sad to think you risked your life and limb over your confusion over what "Free speech" really means.

Free speech is speech made without "prior restraint". What that means is you can not be arrested for what you might say before you make your unprotected hate speech. You can't be arrested to keep you quiet before you actually speak. Do you think slander or libel is protected speech - freely made? Its still free speech but it surely is not protected. And for over 60 years of many rulings the Supreme Court, the final arbiters regarding the Constitutionally of any particular speech, has totally agreed with me: Freely made hate speech is not protected.

Its like murder. You can't be arrested for thinking about it. You can be arrested for making concrete steps to commit it and if you don't actually succeed you might be arrested for intent or attempt but the charge won't be murder until you do the deed.

Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:32 am
@emmett grogan,
Quote:
BULLSHIT!

Are you sure you are not getting defensive?

Quote:
Then what was your point? Still cannot answer that, can you?

I told you, I ask most people on this site if they served, I like to know who the vets are.

Quote:
AND another personal insult and a broad stroke slur on antifas. The devil make you do it???

I'm insulting Antifa, if you feel insulted by common cause, then I'm sorry. I don't think Antifa is a Patriotic group in the least bit. If they keep up the stupid games they are playing, it will have an effect against the Dems and any candidates they run in the next few elections, Americans don't like the idea of a bunch of Communists telling them how to live their lives.
snood
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:35 am
@emmett grogan,
Dude, Baldimo is best ignored on most things, sadly. On this red herring crap about whether antifas served in the military, he will just ring you round the rosy going nowhere - because he has nowhere to go with it. How is it reasonably relevant if someone in antifa did or did not serve in the military? I'll tell you - it's not. A few years back, he and a few others tried to drill me about my military service - as if they were somehow in a position to judge someone else's service. As if the information about my service somehow informed their opinion of my views here. It's just bullshit. Baldimo and others who defend Trump are on the wrong side of history - defending a crazy man who is at odds with everyone except that 35% of deranged fools who defend him.
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:54 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
Are you sure you are not getting defensive?


How is calling attention to a specious argument "defensive"?

Quote:

I told you, I ask most people on this site if they served, I like to know who the vets are.


Trying to put a thin veneer on your BS?

Quote:

I'm insulting Antifa, if you feel insulted by common cause, then I'm sorry. I don't think Antifa is a Patriotic group in the least bit. If they keep up the stupid games they are playing, it will have an effect against the Dems and any candidates they run in the next few elections, Americans don't like the idea of a bunch of Communists telling them how to live their lives.


Ahhhhh, the Trump gambet. Insulting others while trying to pretend evenhandedness.

In that you don't even know any antifas except maybe me, where do you draw any conclusions about their serving or patriotism when they show up to let another group of non serving non patriots: Nazi and KKK that they are murdering purveyers of hate speech and worse and do not belong in a free society?

I think meeting up non violently and condemning murdering kkkers and Nazis would indicate that antifas ARE patriotic and showing through their use of their rights with freely made Constitutionally protected speech.

But I think I finally got it. You agree with Steve Bannon and his comments about the Nazis and KKK fuckwads. You guys think they were idiots because they showed up with tiki torches instead of the ones they used in Munich (See Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will and Der Sieg des Glaubens) and not enough fire arms to intimidate the antifas and deny them their right of Protected Free Speech - the same right that the KKK and Nazis have but pissed on.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ficonicphotos.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F08%2F911bb4bfbc51ae34_landing.jpeg%3Fw%3D700&f=1

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.echoesofenoch.com%2FSwastika%2520rally%2520num.jpg&f=1









'
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:56 am
@snood,
You're right of course.

All we are doing is repeating ourselves. Knowledge is deductive and not inductive. He refuses to learn.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:57 am
@emmett grogan,
Quote:
Double BULLSHIT!

I enlisted and when I did I specifically signed away MY rights to the Bill of Rights (as you did too) to come under the UCMJ. So I could defend the rights of others. I agreed to defend free speech. I NEVER agreed to defend unprotected speech freely made or not. And the fact that you cannot distinguish the difference between protected free speech and freely made unprotected hate speech is stunning. It makes me sad to think you risked your life and limb over your confusion over what "Free speech" really means.

I'm sorry where in our oath did it state such a thing? I don't recall any caviates when I took my oath, unless they changed it from when you served back in the 70's or 80's.
Quote:
I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


Quote:
Free speech is speech made without "prior restraint". What that means is you can not be arrested for what you might say before you make your unprotected hate speech. You can't be arrested to keep you quiet before you actually speak. Do you think slander or libel is protected speech - freely made? Its still free speech but it surely is not protected. And for over 60 years of many rulings the Supreme Court, the final arbiters regarding the Constitutionally of any particular speech, has totally agreed with me: Freely made hate speech is not protected.

Do you want to talk about bullshit? The only type of speech that is restricted is that which incites violence. Talking **** about a group of people you don't like as long as you don't advocate violence, like Anfifa does, is illegal speech. I can provide proof of what I'm saying can you?

http://civil-rights.lawyers.com/civil-rights-basics/does-the-first-amendment-protect-hate-speech.html
Quote:
The First Amendment guarantees the right to freedom of expression. Many Americans—from college students to journalists to legal scholars—believe that guarantee shouldn’t apply to hate speech. As they argue, hate speech tramples on the constitutional rights of its targets by insulting, threatening, or silencing them based on characteristics that are protected under antidiscrimination laws (such as ethnicity, religion, gender, or disability). After all, the U.S. Supreme Court has carved out First Amendment exceptions for certain kinds of particularly dangerous or harmful speech. But the Court hasn’t recognized an exception for hate speech, unless it falls under one of the other kinds of unprotected expression.


Quote:
Its like murder. You can't be arrested for thinking about it. You can be arrested for making concrete steps to commit it and if you don't actually succeed you might be arrested for intent or attempt but the charge won't be murder until you do the deed.

The SCOTUS disagrees with you, they see a major difference between actions and words. Hate speech is protected speech, hate crimes are not protected because they constitute action and not speech.

Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:00 am
@snood,
Sorry Snood, but I'm not a defender of Trump, you have me mixed up with someone else.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:35 am
@Baldimo,
You weren't paying attention, you actually signed a piece of paper that stated you soecifically gave up your Bill of Rights and accepted you're coming under the authority of the UCMJ.

Still looking for the form online, but even so you do notice in your oath: "I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. "

Not the Constitution but the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Surely you don't confuse the UCMJ with the Constitution, do you?

Quote:

Do you want to talk about bullshit? The only type of speech that is restricted is that which incites violence. Talking **** about a group of people you don't like as long as you don't advocate violence, like Anfifa does, is illegal speech. I can provide proof of what I'm saying can you?


Double BULLSHIT!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

United States
Constitutional framework

The protection of civil rights, including freedom of speech, was not written into the original 1789 Constitution of the United States but was added two years later with the Bill of Rights, implemented as several amendments to the Constitution. The First Amendment, ratified December 15, 1791, states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The 14th Amendment, ratified on July 9, 1868, clarifies that this prohibition applies to laws of the states as well.
Supreme Court case law
See also: Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins

Some limits on expression were contemplated by the framers and have been defined by the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). Starting in the 1940s U.S states began passing hate speech laws. In Beauharnais v. Illinois the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the state of Illinois's hate speech laws. Illinois's laws punished expression that was offensive to racial ethnic and religious groups. After Beauharnais v. Illinois, the Supreme Court developed a free speech jurisprudence that loosened most aspects of the free speech doctrine.[87] In 1942, Justice Frank Murphy summarized the case law: "There are certain well-defined and limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise a Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous and the insulting or 'fighting' words – those which by their very utterances inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace."[88]

Traditionally, however, if the speech did not fall within one of the above categorical exceptions, it was protected speech. In 1969, the Supreme Court protected a Ku Klux Klan member’s speech and created the "imminent danger" test to determine on what grounds speech can be limited. The court ruled in Brandenburg v. Ohio that; "The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."[89]


or


In United States labor law, a hostile work environment exists when one's behavior within a workplace creates an environment that is difficult or uncomfortable for another person to work in due to discrimination. Common complaints in sexual harassment lawsuits include fondling, suggestive remarks, sexually-suggestive photos displayed in the workplace, use of sexual language, or off-color jokes.[1] Small issues, annoyances, and isolated incidents typically are not considered to be illegal. To be unlawful, the conduct must create a work environment that would be intimidating, hostile, or offensive to a reasonable person. An employer can be held liable for failing to prevent these workplace conditions, unless it can prove that it attempted to prevent the harassment and that the employee failed to take advantage of existing harassment counter-measures or tools provided by the employer.[2]

A hostile work environment may also be created when management acts in a manner designed to make an employee quit in retaliation for some action. For example, if an employee reported safety violations at work, was injured, attempted to join a union, or reported regulatory violations by management, and management's response was to harass and pressure the employee to quit. Employers have tried to force employees to quit by imposing unwarranted discipline, reducing hours, cutting wages, or transferring the complaining employee to a distant work location.

The United States Supreme Court stated in Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services, Inc.[3] that Title VII is "not a general civility code." Thus, federal law does not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not extremely serious. Rather, the conduct must be so objectively offensive as to alter the conditions of the individual's employment. The conditions of employment are altered only if the harassment culminates in a tangible employment action or is sufficiently severe or pervasive.

Quote:

The SCOTUS disagrees with you, they see a major difference between actions and words. Hate speech is protected speech, hate crimes are not protected because they constitute action and not speech.


Bullshit. See above. Specific threats of violence is not the only test of unprotectd speech - yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected, fighting words aren't protected, and speech isn't all that's considered free speech. Corporate contributions are a form of free speech.

What you don't know about free speech literally fills a book.

Want links? https://able2know.org/topic/404870-3
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:37 am
@emmett grogan,
Quote:
How is calling attention to a specious argument "defensive"?

It was your use of all caps.

Quote:
Trying to put a thin veneer on your BS?

Nope, I like to know who the vets are.

Quote:
Ahhhhh, the Trump gambet. Insulting others while trying to pretend evenhandedness.

Evenhandedness? I don't think the Nazi's/neo-Nazi's or the White Nationalists have a chance in hell of obtaining any power in the US, they are a much smaller group then the MSM and Antifa make them out to be. They should be regulated to history and people turning their backs on them at any future rallies.

Quote:
In that you don't even know any antifas except maybe me, where do you draw any conclusions about their serving or patriotism when they show up to let another group of non serving non patriots: Nazi and KKK?

You are right, as far as I know I don't know any members of Antifa and I don't care to know any, I also don't know any one who is a Nazi/neo-Nazi or a White Nationalist as I don't like those people either, they would be the first ones to say nasty things to my kids, who are of mixed race. I think both groups are pieces of **** and neither one of them should have a stage in the US but the Constitution says they are allowed a stage to speak their hate of what it means to be an American.

Quote:
I think meeting up non violently and condemning murdering kkkers and Nazis would indicate that antifas ARE patriotic and showing through their use of their rights with freely made Constitutionally protected speech.

You would be right if they showed up to be non-violent, but they have proven themselves to be nothing but violent. Are you blinded by the violence Antifa has spread across the US against those they disagree with? If Antifa would only do as you say, I might have a better opinion of them. When they stated with the violence at Berkeley, they lost any support they might have had with me.

Quote:
But I think I finally got it. You agree with Steve Bannon and his comments about the Nazis and KKK fuckwads. You guys think they were idiots because they showed up with tiki torches instead of the ones they used in Munich (See Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will and Der Sieg des Glaubens) and not enough fire arms to intimidate the antifas and deny them their right of Protected Free Speech - the same right that the KKK and Nazis have but pissed on.

It took you longer to cast that aspersion then I thought it would. It figures you would resort to linking me to those douche bags. When you can't win a discussion, you guys always resort to claiming the other is a racist. It wouldn't be the first time on this site and it won't be the last time I'm sure.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:45 am
@emmett grogan,
Also, I would like for baldimo to publicly threaten to kill the president of our country.
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:47 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
It was your use of all caps.


Putz.

Quote:

Nope, I like to know who the vets are.


There's that thin veneer again.

The rest of it is too mishmashed to even bother with.

Hate speech is free speech, in that you don't face have face consequences until after you spew it. Hate speech is not protected speech.

I'll respond again when you stop repeating your personal opinion as rebuttal to its own being factually wrong. If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

Personally I am glad some mujahedin didn't blast you into the next bardo while you were defending your misinterpretation of the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:48 am
@snood,
He's off his head, he accused me of hacking A2K or coercing the mods into deleting or editing both mine and his posts. I have neither the technical know how nor influence, it's absurd, but absurdities are what he deals in.
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
Hey it would be his free speech. Unprotected free speech, but free speech just the same.

Cicerone - you enlisted before I did, do you remember signing a waiver separate from your oath accepting that you weren't covered by the Bill of Rights and accepting the UCMJ as covering your legal rights while in the service?
Baldimo
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 11:26 am
@emmett grogan,
Quote:
You weren't paying attention, you actually signed a piece of paper that stated you soecifically gave up your Bill of Rights and accepted you're coming under the authority of the UCMJ.

I think you mean my Constitutional rights, of which there is a slight exchange but you don't give them up whole sale. I still had the right to speak my mind but in a limited form as you can't talk **** about your Chain of Command.

Quote:
Still looking for the form online, but even so you do notice in your oath: "I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. "

Not the Constitution but the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Surely you don't confuse the UCMJ with the Constitution, do you?

As I said above, you didn't give up your Constitutional Rights up whole sale, there were limitations placed on what you could and couldn't do but you didn't give them up whole sale. You can attend a political rally and even speak at said rally, but you can't do it in Uniform or speak as a member of the military.

Quote:
Double BULLSHIT!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

United States
Constitutional framework

Tsk tsk tsk. You should have read the rest of that page you posted, since you were being dishonest about the 1st Amendment I'll post the rest of it.

Quote:
This test has been modified very little from its inception in 1969 and the formulation is still good law in the United States. Only speech that poses an imminent danger of unlawful action, where the speaker has the intention to incite such action and there is the likelihood that this will be the consequence of his or her speech, may be restricted and punished by that law.

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, (1992), the issue of banning hate speech arose again when a gang of white people burned a cross in the front yard of a black family. The local ordinance in St. Paul, Minnesota, criminalized such expressions considered racist and the teenager was charged thereunder. Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the Supreme Court, held that the prohibition against hate speech was unconstitutional as it contravened the First Amendment. The Supreme Court struck down the ordinance. Scalia explicated the fighting words exception as follows: “The reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey”.[91] Because the hate speech ordinance was not concerned with the mode of expression, but with the content of expression, it was a violation of the freedom of speech. Thus, the Supreme Court embraced the idea that speech in general is permissible unless it will lead to imminent violence.[92] The opinion noted "This conduct, if proved, might well have violated various Minnesota laws against arson, criminal damage to property", among a number of others, none of which was charged, including threats to any person, not to only protected classes.

In 2011, the Supreme Court issued their ruling on Snyder v. Phelps, which concerned the right of the Westboro Baptist Church to protest with signs found offensive by many Americans. The issue presented was whether the 1st Amendment protected the expressions written on the signs. In an 8–1 decision the court sided with Fred Phelps, the head of Westboro Baptist Church, thereby confirming their historically strong protection of freedom of speech, so long as it doesn't promote imminent violence. The Court explained, "speech deals with matters of public concern when it can 'be fairly considered as relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community' or when it 'is a subject of general interest and of value and concern to the public."[93]

In June 2017, the Supreme Court affirmed in an unanimous decision on Matal v. Tam that the disparagement clause of the Lanham Act violates the First Amendment's free speech clause. The issue was about government prohibiting the registration of trademarks that are "racially disparaging". Justice Samuel Alito writes:

Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.” United States v. Schwimmer, 279 U. S. 644, 655 (1929) (Holmes, J., dissenting).[94]

Justice Anthony Kennedy also writes:

A law that can be directed against speech found offensive to some portion of the public can be turned against minority and dissenting views to the detriment of all. The First Amendment does not entrust that power to the government’s benevolence. Instead, our reliance must be on the substantial safeguards of free and open discussion in a democratic society.[94]

Effectively, the Supreme Court unanimously reaffirms that there is no 'hate speech' exception to the First Amendment.


Quote:
or
In United States labor law,

Not sure why you are posting this as a majority of us already know the 1st Amendment doesn't apply in the work place. Call your boss an asshole and he can fire you in some states. Are you trying to link the Labor Laws on speech to speech on public land?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

The SCOTUS disagrees with you, they see a major difference between actions and words. Hate speech is protected speech, hate crimes are not protected because they constitute action and not speech.



Bullshit. See above. Specific threats of violence is not the only test of unprotectd speech - yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected, fighting words aren't protected, and speech isn't all that's considered free speech. Corporate contributions are a form of free speech.

What you don't know about free speech literally fills a book.
Want links? https://able2know.org/topic/404870-3

You shared a link with me where Max schools you in Free Speech and how it really works. It seems to me what you do know about Free Speech could fill a small post-it note. You want "Free Speech for me but not for thee." Anfifa can roam the streets threatening to punch people they disagree with and you want to talk about speech that leads to violence not being allowed...
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 11:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Also, I would like for baldimo to publicly threaten to kill the president of our country.

You should be ashamed of yourself, I would never threaten to kill any President of the US, no matter how much I don't like them. No matter how much I didn't like Clinton or Obama, I wouldn't have backed anyone who wanted them dead. To kill a President of the US should be an instant death sentence for Treason of the highest order. We have elections to remove bad leaders.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 11:33 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
He's off his head, he accused me of hacking A2K or coercing the mods into deleting or editing both mine and his posts. I have neither the technical know how nor influence, it's absurd, but absurdities are what he deals in.

You continue to lie about this situation. I claimed you were an admin and that you deleted your own posts. You were the one who said anything about hacking, I also never said you did anything to my posts, only your own posts. This story slightly changes each time you tell it, that's how people should know you are lying.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 01:31 pm
@emmett grogan,
You might find this interesting:
The Rights of Military Members:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/rights_of_military_mbrs.pdf
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:01 pm
@emmett grogan,
I don't remember signing that waiver, but I know I lost all my freedoms. That's the reason one of the happiest day of my life was when I rode that bus for the last time out the front gate at Walker AFB in New Mexico. I still remember that special day of my life. Freedom at last! God almighty, freedom at last! The monkey was finally off my back after four years in the Air Force. But, the Air Force did me a lot of good too, because it gave me the motivation to continue my education, so I went to college. It also grew my love for world travel, because I was stationed in Morocco for one year, and was able to travel to Marrakech, Casablanca, Tangiers, Madrid, Paris and London. Life was pretty good after that. I think I've traveled to 113 countries so far.

Emmett, you wrote in your profile, "Tired of my enforced retirement. I feel like I've departed the tomb." I was the opposite; I retired early although I really enjoyed working. My travels kept me active and motivated. I met my travel buddy, Alexander Ogilvie, on one of my trips, a Canadian who now lives in Loreto, Mexico, . Since my wife hates travel, Alexander and I have traveled all over the world together. Our last trips together were to Cuba, and we now have many friends there. We haven't traveled together for a few years now. I think he's trying to save for retirement. I've been retired since 1998.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:48 pm
Silurian Period, in geologic time, the third period of the Paleozoic Era. It began 443.8 million years ago and ended 419.2 million years ago, extending from the close of the Ordovician Period to the beginning of the Devonian Period.
https://www.britannica.com/science/Silurian-Period
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  4  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 05:33 pm
https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20994357_2031364700419660_6237214356516212337_n.jpg?oh=a12b7fcdd1198b8611847cf8750eb1bf&oe=5A2C8A39
 

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