Is Domestic violence always domestic violence?

@firefly,

Quote:

You are trying to promote the men's rights narrative of claiming that domestic violence is a gender-equal phenomenon. You've ignored considerable evidence to the contrary that has been posted in this thread--and that suggests you are not "a rational scientific person...who chooses "to accept what the facts say." Rather, you seem to be someone who is trying to sell his own politically motivated ideology, and who rejects evidence that does not comport with the narrative he is trying to sell.

I think you are the one ignoring considerable evidence. The facts have already been posted here that curious, unbiased people can view on their own (since clearly you and I don't agree). As you pointed out before (and I agree) that as violence is perpetrated by both men and women, the exact numbers don't really matter. Domestic violence should be taken seriously no matter who is the perpetrator.

I am willing to admit where feminists have made a legitimate point, in fact I agree with feminists when they have an point that is clearly supported by facts and reason.

I wish that you could admit where father's rights groups have a legitimate point.

You can support both women's rights and men's rights.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

You can support both women's rights and men's rights.

Shouldn't we all?

(it's also called human rights)

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Oh wow, my first ruban...

Thanks Max! How much do I owe you?

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I am willing to admit where feminists have made a legitimate point, in fact I agree with feminists when they have an point that is clearly supported by facts and reason.

I wish that you could admit where father's rights groups have a legitimate point.

You can support both women's rights and men's rights.

What have "feminists" got to do with any of this? Do you feel compelled to drag them into every discussion, whether relevant or not?

The considerable body of research on which gender gets physically battered more often, and gets most seriously physically injured in domestic relationships, is not ambiguous, it's quite clear--and it's not 50/50.

I won't agree with either feminists or men's rights/father's rights groups when they make exaggerated, and unsupported, claims for purposes of promoting their own agendas, which I see you doing in this thread.

I don't share your paranoid belief that all government and university research is biased and rigged to get desired results, which you feel are pro-feminist. I see absolutely no evidence to support that contention, or to support the implication that all of these researchers are consequently unethical.

I am not a feminist, but, no matter how many times I say that, you ignore it. My views of crimes, like domestic battery/physical domestic violence are not informed by feminist thinking, they are determined by objective reviews of the literature and research findings, You, on the other hand identify as a men's rights/father's right advocate, and whether you realize it or not, or admit to it or not, you approach this entire topic from a biased perspective because of that. You don't seem to realize that there is a world of objectivity out there that is not on any sort of feminist/men's rights spectrum. It's not feminists who have been questioning your assertions and conclusions in this thread--you've been challenged, by several posters, with considerable conflicting research evidence.

Quote:

You can support both women's rights and men's rights

In the context of the crime of domestic physical battery, we should both be concerned with protecting and assisting the victims of such crimes--and helping to insure their safety--regardless of their gender. This has nothing to do with supporting "both women's rights and men's rights"--it has to do with assisting individuals who are victims of physically violent domestic crimes and threats. You want to help men when they are in need of escaping from a physically violent domestic situation, whether the physical violence comes from a female, or from a father, step-father, or brother? Then make sure there are victim support services, and shelters and refuges available to men who need them, but don't try to claim they need just as many of those shelters as battered woman do, because the gender split on that score does not seem to be 50/50.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

The considerable body of research on which gender gets physically battered more often, and gets most seriously physically injured in domestic relationships, is not ambiguous, it's quite clear--and it's not 50/50.

Read the research. You are only looking at one side of the research. Women are more likely to get injured. Men and women are equally likely to initiate physical violence. Men are less likely to report violence against them.

Quote:

I won't agree with either feminists or men's rights/father's rights groups when they make exaggerated, and unsupported, claims for purposes of promoting their own agendas, which I see you doing in this thread.

I don't share your paranoid belief that all government and university research is biased and rigged to get desired results, which you feel are pro-feminist. I see absolutely no evidence to support that contention, or to support the implication that all of these researchers are consequently unethical.

I don't have such a paranoid belief. The research is pretty reliable (and in this thread it is you who have rejected research findings). There was a single study that I feel was politically motivated, and if you look objectively at how the study was done, it was. Reputable and unbiased social scientists agree with me on this. You are making a straw man argument.

But this isn't the important issue. Let's talk about the impact of gender stereotypes in real life.

There are many ways that the system is unfair to women. You and I agree (I think completely) about these ways which include equal pay for equal work and the right to physical safety.

There are also ways that the system is unfair to men, including custody rights. You seem to have trouble accepting any way that gender stereotypes disadvantage men.

All I am asking is that we look at ways to make society more fair for both genders.

You can support both men's rights and women's rights.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

No, I'm not really interested in either how the system is unfair to women, or how it is unfair to men.

You want to complain about "fairness" in the system, you need to move way beyond gender--the "system" is not fair to the poor, or to blacks, or even to children whose parents won't vaccinate them against preventable diseases, or children whose parents abuse them etc.--things that cut across all lines of gender--and things that I feel are far more important to the welfare of our society than any gender-based complaints of "unfairness".

I'm concerned that everyone is afforded, and receives, the same civil rights.

And I stopped thinking in terms of gender stereotypes at least 50 years ago, so it's a non-issue for me personally, and it has nothing to do with civil rights. No intelligent thinking person should be engaging in over-generalized stereotypical thinking about any group.

You're hung up on gender issues, I'm not. I want to see domestic physical battery stopped, and victims of such crimes adequately protected and supported, because I value human life, and because I believe it is a violation of basic civil rights when anyone is made to endure violent physical battery, particularly when it is ongoing, in a domestic situation.

When you really believe in equality, you stop thinking in terms of "men's rights" and "women's rights" as though they were separate entities.

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@firefly,

Quote:

No, I'm not really interested in how the system is unfair to women, or how it is unfair to men.
...
I'm concerned that everyone is afforded, and receives, the same civil rights.

These two statements seem contradictory.

Quote:

I want to see domestic physical battery stopped, and victims of such crimes adequately protected and supported, because I value human life, and because I believe it is a violation of basic civil rights when anyone is made to endure violent physical battery, particularly, when it is ongoing, in a domestic situation

We are 100% in agreement in this.

I also want parents to be given equal ability to raise their children (and children the equal right to be raised by both parents). And I also want prison sentencing to be fair, without regard to race or gender. Protecting rights of one group doesn't mean we are denying them from another.

You can support both woman's rights and men's rights.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

When you really believe in equality, you stop thinking in terms of "men's rights" and "women's rights" as though they were separate entities.

I find this comment interesting... but let's dig deeper on what this means.

Can you list the ways that gender stereotypes in society are unfair to women? Can you list the ways that gender stereotypes in society are unfair to men? (For the record, I can give examples of both.)

If you don't think that gender stereotypes in society are unfair to either women or men then I see your point.

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@maxdancona,

I repeat..
When you really believe in equality, you stop thinking in terms of "men's rights" and "women's rights" as though they were totally separate entities with totally separate concerns and interests. It's an artificial divide, and one that promotes divisiveness on the basis of gender.

Quote:

Protecting rights of one group doesn't mean we are denying them from another

We shouldn't be protecting the rights of one group, we should be protecting everyone's civil and legal rights equally. As soon as you get into "protecting the rights of one group" you are engaging in promoting special interests.

We are just not on the same wave length in terms of how we conceptualize and think, and I find it pointless to continue the discussion with you. Either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you really can't understand how my thinking differs from yours, and I have no desire to waste any more time trying to explain it to you.

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@firefly,

Firefly,

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage women. I think you agree with me about that. The issue of "equal pay for equal work" is important because women aren't paid as much as men. This is an issue that is unfair to women (not to men).

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage men. The issue of equal custody rights to custody is important because men are given custody much less then women. This is an issue that is unfair to men.

If what you are saying is that both of these issues are important and should be addressed, I agree with you. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't hear you saying that.

Both of these issues should be addressed. Supporting the issues that help men (like custody and fair sentencing) doesn't mean you can't also support the issues that help women (like equal pay and physical safety). That is why I keep saying that you can support both men's rights and women's rights. Ignoring an issue of rights simply because it helps men doesn't seem like "equality".

I will be sorry if you choose not to continue this discussion. I have enjoyed it. Thank you for engaging with me.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

When you really believe in equality, you stop thinking in terms of "men's rights" and "women's rights" as though they were totally separate entities with totally separate concerns and interests. It's an artificial divide, and one that promotes divisiveness on the basis of gender.

I vote for that. Men are just like an other woman anyway...

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage women. I think you agree with me about that. The issue of "equal pay for equal work" is important because women aren't paid as much as men. This is an issue that is unfair to women (not to men).

No, I don't agree with you about that either. I've never been paid less than any male co-worker who did the same thing I did. So it's not an issue that affects all women, or that has actually affected any women I know.

You don't get it--you are engaging in a gender stereotype by assuming I would agree with that statement because I am a woman.

If you don't like gender stereotyping, don't engage in it.

Bye, Max...

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@firefly,

Quote:

Q. Excessive Feminists: I’m a woman in a very masculine scientific field, and I’ve found that many women involved in feminist circles want to hear about my experience. I absolutely agree that there are biases against women in the workplace and love a good discussion, but I have never really suffered from sexism. First, I’m young enough (27) that I’m not eligible for senior positions anyway, and second, I’ve never been flirted with in an inappropriate manner, or felt I wasn’t listened to. Maybe I’m just awesome at playing the man’s game (or in denial and don’t have an eye for sexism?). More probably, I landed in a great environment that just suffers from a dearth of females because there are too few candidates. But even quite reasonable and pleasant women get aggressive when I don’t have anything to contribute to their list of crimes committed by the patriarchy. I don’t want to lie, but I’m not sure how to handle inquiries when I can’t give them the story they want.

A: How strange that people who say they are fighting for equality are dismayed when they encounter it. How sad that they don’t want to hear the good news that you have been welcomed into this traditionally male field, that your male peers and bosses treat you wonderfully, and that you are thriving. It’s exciting this has been your experience—what a great ambassador you can be for younger women seeking to enter your field. There is an unfortunate strain of obsessive grievance-mongering in feminism today. It’s a kind of sport for these self-proclaimed guardians to venomously attack those they feel don’t precisely toe their line. You’re a scientist who lives in the world of facts. You are finding that ideologues aren’t interested in facts, thus they go after you when your reality trumps their ideology. My general advice is that it’s best not to engage with unpleasant people, especially those who seek to lecture you about your own experiences. Feel free to extract yourself and say, “You’ll have to excuse me, but I’ve got to get back to the lab.” But if you feel like it, you can also counterpunch by saying something like, “It’s funny, but the only people who try to bully me are women who aren’t in my profession.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2015/02/dear_prudence_feminists_are_upset_that_i_don_t_have_much_sexism_to_complain.html

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@firefly,

That's interesting Firefly.

I really thought you and I would agree about "Equal pay for Equal Work".

I am sorry that I made that assumption, but it wasn't because of your gender. I would assume that anyone, man or woman, who expresses a belief in civil rights would agree with the principle of "Equal Pay for Equal work". I would also make this assumption about Izzy and Engineer. I myself agree with this principle because I think it is a matter of fairness.

You are right that I shouldn't assume, but I must admit I am a rather surprised that you don't agree with this principle.

Again, thank you for this conversation. I have enjoyed it.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

I would assume that anyone, man or woman, who expresses a belief in civil rights would agree with the principle of "Equal Pay for Equal work...

Don't twist my words, or thinking, around, to make yourself look blameless.

You didn't ask me if I agreed with a principle of equal pay for equal work--for everyone.

This is what you said:

Quote:

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage women. I think you agree with me about that. The issue of "equal pay for equal work" is important because women aren't paid as much as men. This is an issue that is unfair to women (not to men).

You assumed that women are already being disadvantaged because they are not being paid as much as men, and that this is unfair to women, but not to men...and, you assumed that, surely, as a woman, I'm going to agree with you about that.

My response to you was that I've never been paid less than a man, and neither has any other woman I know. In other words I don't see women, as an entire group, being "disadvantaged" in that way.

In addition, I can think of instances where some men are "disadvantaged" in terms of equal pay--like all the gardeners around my neighborhood who exclusively hire undocumented immigrants to work for them, sometimes as day laborers, because they can get away with paying them less, a lot less--so it's not an issue that doesn't affect men.

Where did I say I didn't agree with the basic principle of equal pay for equal work?

You are basically dishonest, Max. Quite blatantly dishonest. My instinct to stop engaging in discussion with you was correct. Now I should move on to ignoring you as well. I prefer to interact with people who are at least being honest, and not playing games like distorting other poster's comments, and trying to back track on what they themselves have said.

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@firefly,

I am a bit confused (and amused) Firefly. You have twice before indicated that you were ending this discussion, and yet you keep coming back, and now you have said goodbye a third time.

This is a discussion of two intelligent people who disagree. If you are looking to crush your enemies, and force me to confess to you that I am completely and undeniably wrong, you are going to have a hard time of it on an internet forum.

If you keep responding, it should be because you are enjoying the discussion. Ideally a discussion such as this should be enjoyable for both people involved. I am here because I enjoy discussing topics I care about with people who don't share my perspective. I believe that this is a healthy pastime.

Now, I said

Quote:

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage women. I think you agree with me about that. The issue of "equal pay for equal work" is important because women aren't paid as much as men. This is an issue that is unfair to women (not to men).

This is a common opinion held by people of both genders. It is based more on political leaning; I would expect Sarah Palin to disagree with this and I would expect Barack Obama to agree. My assumption was that anyone who expresses views closer to Obama then to Palin would agree that women have been disadvantaged by being paid less then men for the same work.

I apologize if this assumption was incorrect. And, I hope that we can continue our discussion with civility.

If you are not enjoying this discussion, then you are free to leave it and you should. But if you continue to respond we will continue this discussion. I just hope we can continue to be civil.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

You are basically dishonest, Max. Quite blatantly dishonest. My instinct to stop engaging in discussion with you was correct. Now I should move on to ignoring you as well.

You've made the right choice, some people just bring misery. Max is an expert on sucking the joy out of life, and you can't believe a word he says.

Sort of like a special needs satan.

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@izzythepush,

I don't know whether he is an expert on sucking the joy out of life, but he's a dishonest manipulator in discussions, and that sucks the joy out of trying to discuss issues on an intellectual plane. He does it in thread after thread.

Notice how, in his last post, he says he'd expect Sarah Palin, but not Barack Obama, to disagree with his comments about women being disadvantaged by receiving unequal pay, meaning I'm thinking like Sarah Palin by disagreeing with him Laughing

That's designed to hit my buttons, and offend me, and manipulate me into continuing to converse with him. Like he really knows what Sarah Palin thinks on the issue. Laughing

I'm sure she made sure she was paid as much as any male governor of Alaska, and that there was never any question she would be. And I'm equally sure that Michelle Obama would also say she's never been paid less than a male counterpart for doing the same work.

I agree, you can't believe what he says, nor can you have an intelligent civil discussion with him because he's so dishonest and manipulative. But, if you point out to him that he's being dishonest and manipulative, he considers it a "personal attack" Laughing

He's very transparent.

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@firefly,

Come on Firefly. Personal attacks aren't part of an intelligent discussion.

I said

Quote:

There are gender stereotypes and practices in society that disadvantage women. I think you agree with me about that. The issue of "equal pay for equal work" is important because women aren't paid as much as men. This is an issue that is unfair to women (not to men)

You said you disagree with this... which is fine .. but then you accused me of making this assumption because of your gender.

I was just pointing out that gender has nothing to do with this common point of view. Sarah Palin is a woman who would disagree with my statement. Barack Obama is a man who would agree. The issue of ¨equal pay for equal work¨ has far more to do with political leaning then with gender.

I also assume that Izzy believes that there are gender stereotypes and practices that disadvantage woman, and that the fact that women are paid less then men for the same work are an example of this. I actually would like to know if Izzy agrees with my statement above. I don't mind more personal attacks. I would just like a definitive answer on his opinion of my statement about "equal pay for equal work" to assuage my curiosity.

Personal attacks are an effective way to avoid a civil, intelligent, discussion (if that is what you want to do), although it seems easier to just stop responding.

I have stated my opinions and my reasoning without any personal attacks. I will continue to do so in hopes that we can have more intelligent discussion.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Come on Firefly. Personal attacks aren't part of an intelligent discussion.

That ship sailed long ago, how many hundreds of times has she posted this one?

https://thebluedawg.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tinfoil.jpg

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Is Domestic violence always domestic violence?

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