2
   

Is Domestic violence always domestic violence?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:42 am
@ehBeth,
Well, I suppose that fair is subjective. Equality is a pretty clear standard. I think that domestic violence should be treated seriously even if the alleged perpetrator is a woman. I would support an agency that catered to battered people. There doesn't seem to be any.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:43 am
@ehBeth,
You took that out of context EhBeth, I was asking you if there was any balanced study that passes your sniff test?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:50 am
Let's ask the question directly.

A person feels their intimate partner isn't listening. They get frustrated and they slap their partner in the face.

Is this always domestic violence?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:52 am
@maxdancona,
Really? you made very direct comments about my behaviour.

Quote:
Any study that says that men are predominantly batterers and women are predominantly victims you accept. Any study that says that men and women are equal you reject.


What was the purpose of them?

________

You could have simply asked your question without those comments.

_________

In fact, you had asked the question previously and I had given you a suggestion of one researcher who appears to do solid work. I'd also referenced a journal with decades of peer-reviewed research for you to consider if you are interested in reading further.

________

Explain the comments and back them up.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:59 am
@maxdancona,
I would consider it domestic violence.

I think (and from review of the research believe it to be true) that domestic violence is significantly under-reported.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 11:59 am
@ehBeth,
You are cherry picking studies from a single researcher that neither of us can read. The abstracts that you posted didn't answer even answer the question that we are discussing. The final paper you cherry picked doesn't have anything to do with domestic violence, it has to do with rape (and clearly in the case of rape the majority of perpetrators are men).

On the other hand, I have given you links to studies that actually relate to the issue at hand. They aren't from a single researcher and they aren't cherry picked. If you look at the papers on "gender symmetry" you will see a great number of papers on both sides of the issue as well as a general consensus that the data do indicate that men and women are equal when it comes to perpetrating violence.

You apparently have your mind made up. The research indicates that you are wrong (although there are some people who are questioning the metric used).
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:03 pm
@ehBeth,
What if we got rid of the terms "battered woman" and "battered man" and used instead the term "battered person". And what if we treated them equally. This would mean that we would treat all cases of domestic violence seriously (rather than just half of them).

It would be slightly more difficult for people to hold to the simplistic narrative of men perpetrating violence against female victims. Although the idea that helping men hurts women seems a wrong to me.

But on the bright side, it would be fact-based and it would mean taking seriously twice as many cases of domestic violence.

What do you think.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:10 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I would support an agency that catered to battered people. There doesn't seem to be any.


http://www.mrcforchange.org/links.html

Quote:
Resources for and about Survivors of Abuse and Trauma

The links below open Excel files listing websites that provide resource and referral information for the support of men who have experienced childhood abuse (sexual, physical, emotional, etc) or sexual assault as an adult, as well as for battered men and partners, family members, and friends of male survivors of those experiences.

You can open an extensive list with 75 sites or an abbreviated list with 11 of the sites that we feel are most useful.

At the tops of the columns you will find the headings for Organization, Phone, and Website, followed by categories of information:

Who is served by this site?
What kind of information is available on this site?
What will I find on this site?
The top row and first column of the spreadsheet are frozen so you will always know what organization and topic are referred to.
follow this link to open the full survivors' resource file (75 sites)
follow this link to open the abbreviated survivors' resource file (top 11 sites)


http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/help-for-abused-men.htm


Quote:
Advice and support helplines for abused men

In the U.S. and Canada: Call Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women at 1-888-7HELPLINE (1-888-743-5754).

In the UK: Call ManKind Initiative at 01823 334244 or Men's Advice Line at 0808 801 0327.

In Australia: Visit One in Three Campaign for advice and hotlines.

Worldwide: Visit SAFE for a list of crisis hotlines, shelters, and other resources or International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies.


from webmd

Quote:

"What people should know is that abuse is about power and control, and regardless of whether the victim is a man or a woman, it is never OK," says Havilah Tower-Perkins, media relations coordinator for the National Domestic Violence Hotline. "We urge anyone whose relationship scares them to call the National Domestic Violence Hotline (NDVH) at (800) 799-SAFE (7233) or the TTY line for the deaf: (800) 787-3224. The Hotline is staffed 24 hours a day, year round with live advocates who can answer questions, discuss safety options, and connect callers to resources in their local area. Every call to NDVH is anonymous."


can male and female abuse victims be treated together? should they?
I don't know.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:12 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are cherry picking studies from a single researcher that neither of us can read.


I can read them. If you're interested, go to a medical library and get access.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:13 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The final paper you cherry picked doesn't have anything to do with domestic violence, it has to do with rape (and clearly in the case of rape the majority of perpetrators are men).


I was the one who pointed out if was off-topic, and used it to show that it is the kind of research I like to see - identifying its own limitations.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:13 pm
@ehBeth,
Geez ehBeth! Do you have to make me jealous? Wink
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You apparently have your mind made up.


so what's my opinion?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:20 pm
@ehBeth,
That domestic violence is primarily a problem of male perpetrators abusing female victims.

Tell me I am wrong and I will be more than happy to apologize.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:22 pm
@maxdancona,
I could have gone with most of that post til I noticed this

maxdancona wrote:
This would mean that we would treat all cases of domestic violence seriously (rather than just half of them).

But on the bright side, it would be fact-based

What do you think.


half? none of the studies suggest that

there's a lose on fact-based right there

that's what I think
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:26 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
half? none of the studies suggest that


You are wrong EhBeth.

Multiple studies (including the original study for this thread) strongly suggest that men and women, across cultures, are equally likely to commit domestic violence. This implies that half of the cases of domestic violence have a female perpetrator.

This may contradict your existing beliefs, But that shouldn't surprise you, that's what science does.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:40 pm
@maxdancona,
There are definitely male victims of domestic violence and that is a problem that needs to be addressed but the numbers don't seem to support 50% of domestic incidents.

from Wikipedia

Quote:
The CTS[edit]
In a 2002 review of the research presenting evidence of gender symmetry, Michael Kimmel argued that more than 90% of "systematic, persistent, and injurious" violence is perpetrated by men. He was especially critical of the fact that the majority of the empirical studies reviewed by Fiebert and Archer used the conflict tactics scale (CTS) as the sole measure of domestic violence, and that many of the studies used samples composed entirely of single people under the age of thirty, as opposed to older married couples.[66] Although the CTS is the most widely used domestic violence measurement instrument in the world,[67] it is also one of the most criticized instruments, due to its exclusion of context variables and motivational factors in understanding acts of violence.[43][68] For example, the National Institute of Justice cautions that the CTS may not be appropriate for IPV research at all "because it does not measure control, coercion, or the motives for conflict tactics."[69] Similarly, a paper issued by the Australian Domestic and Family Violence Clearinghouse writes

we stress that while the number of studies finding gender symmetry is ever growing, we consider their reliance on the CTS inherently limits the robustness of information produced. We argue that practitioners should have confidence that data available from multiple sources support claims of gender asymmetry in domestic violence. What the data presented here demonstrate is that both men and women perpetrate a range of different forms of aggression in relationships but may have different motivations, including self-defense. Both men and women can experience violence by an intimate partner but their experience of this is likely to be different in terms of the forms of violence experienced, its severity and impact. The severity of physical injury and levels of coercion from all forms of violence in relationships appear to be greater for women than for men.[70]

Kimmel argues that the CTS is particularly vulnerable to reporting bias because it depends on asking people to accurately remember and honestly report incidents which have occurred up to a year previously. He argues that men tend to underestimate their use of violence, and women tend to overestimate their use of violence, whilst men tend to overestimate their partner's use of violence, and women tend to underestimate their partner's use of violence. Thus, men will likely overestimate their victimization and underestimate their perpetration, while women will underestimate their victimization and overestimate their perpetration.[66]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men


I don't think it's as big an imbalance as 90/10, but mostly I think self-reports are nearly meaningless.

On an anecdotal basis, I'll say the under/over-reporting in this area sounds right to me as it matches my experience of men/women with colds. But I wouldn't base a decision on that.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:44 pm
@ehBeth,
Exactly EhBeth,

Michael Kimmel admits that " the number of studies finding gender symmetry is ever growing". That is exactly my point. He then argues that the results are not valid. He is clearly a critic of gender symmetry. But, he admits that the data show an equal number of male and female perpetrator of violence.

He is making an argument about why the scientific results don't match his preconceived beliefs. This is why you chose to quote him, rather than the number of people in this article who accept the scientific results.

But even he accepts that the results of these scientific studies show an equal number of male and female perpetrators of domestic violence.


ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:56 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
He is clearly a critic of gender symmetry.


No. He is a critic of the CTS, as are many other researchers in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_tactics_scale

Quote:
Another methodological problem is that interobserver reliability (the likelihood that the two members of the measured dyad respond similarly) is near zero for tested husband and wife couples. That is, the chances of a given couple reporting similar answers about events they both experienced is no greater than chance.[30] On the most severe CTS items, husband-wife agreement is actually below chance: "On the item "beat up," concordance was nil: although there were respondents of both sexes who claimed to have administered beatings and respondents of both sexes who claimed to have been on the receiving end, there was not a single couple in which one party claimed to have administered and the other to have received such a beating."[30]


ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 12:58 pm
@ehBeth,
I'll admit I cheated - I looked at the CTS critics before I posted about it.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 01:01 pm
@ehBeth,
Of course he is criticizing the CTS. The CTS didn't give him the results he wanted.

If scientifically collected data doesn't match your pre-existing beliefs, you have two choices. You can either accept the scientific data and evolve your beliefs, or you can go back to find a way to try to refute the scientific data until you can convince yourself that you were right all along.

This happens a lot when you have an ideology with a vested interest in a scientific question. If the number you get don't match an ideology, the researchers are often asked to go back and find a way to get better numbers.

I don't think this is a very good way to do science.

If there is an objective consensus to have a new measure, then that is perhaps valid. But when one side of an ideological divide is calling for a new number because they don't like the results, that makes me uncomfortable, especially when there is a political component (as there is in domestic violence).

Ideology shouldn't be allowed to drive science.
 

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