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Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 05:24 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Couldn't somebody else, somehow, resolve this


From what I've seen, Dale, nobody around here will resolve it. Chances are you will just encounter assertions which amount to no more than someone repeating what they've been told (or think they've been told).

But don't trust me. Just think about it. The assertions that two conflicting claims are both equally valid can't be true (at least not in this case). Once you see that, a lot of confusion should disappear.

Think about this:

1. A and B are moving with respect to each other (and they both agree on this)

2. Both A and B insist that THEY are not the one moving, and that it is only the other who is moving.

3. But A and B cannot possibly both be right. If they were both "at rest," then there would be no motion between them.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 05:30 pm
@layman,
Lay I hear ya absolutely. For some 60 to 70 years the very "paradox" or contradiction you describe has bothered me, but I had assumed that it was because I hadn't heard all the facts, as I put forth somewhere else, my four wild idees to explain the discrepancy

Hoping for that fifth
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 07:57 pm
@dalehileman,
Dale, this page (and other information on the site) may be of interest to you:

http://worknotes.com/Physics/SpecialRelativity/TwinParadox/htmlpage4.aspx

It might help you to keep in mind that, as far as I know, no reputable physicist in the world claims that SR is "necessary" to explain the physical phenomena relating to relative motion. Other theoretical premises, which includes the presumption that there IS a preferred frame and that time is not relative, will serve to explain all the known physical data just as well.

SR has not been "proven." Many, many scientists and rational people have, for many generations, repeatedly pointed out the logical inconsistencies generated by SR. All the "paradoxes" of SR are easily avoided, and never even arise, in a theory which assumes that simultaneity is absolute.

Quote:
A preferred frame theory, which employs the same Lorentz factor as Special Relativity but where velocity is always measured with respect to a single, preferred frame, gives a complete physics explanation of how the NPTD accumulates without any hint of a paradox


If nothing else, the information at the site will demonstrate that you are far from alone in having serious doubts about the value of SR as a satisfactory solution to the questions involved.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 08:18 pm
@dalehileman,
From another page at the same site:

Quote:
...to compute the velocity effect on clock rate, GPS uses the Lorentz Relativity method and not the Special Relativity method. The two methods give different answers. If GPS used the Special Relativity method, it would produce significantly less acurate results. With the Lorentz Relativity method, GPS first uses the velocity of the earth bound clocks relative to a single prefrred frame..


http://worknotes.com/Physics/SpecialRelativity/TwinParadox/htmlpage9.aspx

Quote:
The empirical data shows that velocity causes a change in the proper time accumulation rate of clocks. This is a physical, asymmetric, absolute effect and affects clocks in inertial and non-inertial (e.g., accelerating, rotating) frames. Special Relativity's time dilation equation is a function of relative velocity and, as such, is inherently symmetric and observer dependent and cannot be the cause of asymmetric decreasing of proper time accumulation rates. Relative velocity which is inherently symmetric does not cause asymmetric effects.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 08:41 pm
@dalehileman,
This is a rather simple difference between SR and what I'll call LR (Lorentizian relativity):

In SR, both twins will "claim" that they are not moving.

In LR, the earth twin will say that he is not the one (relatively) moving and the spaceship twin will AGREE that he is the one moving, not the earth twin.

This rather simple (and natural) agreement implies that the speed of light is not constant in all frames. It is measured to be the same, because moving clocks actually do slow down and (presumably) lengths do contract. But in LR, the moving observer knows that his measurement of the speed of light is just an artifact of an insubstantial "appearance."

What is missing in LR, that is ever-present in SR, is the conflicting and contradictory claims that the observers in SR are forced (by the theory) to make.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 09:08 pm
@layman,
Have you ever heard any astronaut who has flown to the moon, any pilot who has flown a plane, any driver who has gone down the road in a car, any equestrian who has ridden a horse, etc., seriously claim that HE is not the one moving, but rather that he has remained motionless while the earth moved away from (or under) him?

Why must "observers" in SR be COMPELLED to make such ridiculous claims?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 09:57 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:
Yet it seems to fall apart in the instance where I don't fire my retros but just rush on past, quickly returning home but using a different route.

What is this "different route"???

The answer to this is rather important, as the nature of your proposed different route is the key to resolving your discrepancy.


dalehileman wrote:
So in my ignorance (?) and in just a few words I concluded either that (1) I've proven the Universe can't be finite; (2) there must be a "stationary ref"; (3) it was the acceleration caused my watch to stop; or (4) the apparent slowing of your watch doesn't persist throughout my trip

Regarding your point #1, there is good evidence (the pattern in the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation) that the universe is infinite.

Of course, if it turns out that we're all software in a computer simulation, it might turn out that our universe isn't infinite. It's hard to see how a computer could simulate an infinite number of objects.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 11:00 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
(2) there must be a "stationary ref"


The CMB (CMBr, if you prefer) has been found to be homogenous throughout the universe with accuracy of 1 part in 100,ooo (or something like that).

Yet if we look at the CMB from one direction, it is moving away from us. But if we look at it from the opposite direction, it is approaching us. How can that be?

Note that if you took the position that all inertial frames are equivalent, you could express the exact same thing in a different way:

You could also say that "if we look at the CMB from one direction, WE are moving it away from it. But if we look at it from the opposite direction, WE are approaching the CMB."

It is this second way of expressing it that most astrophysicists agree is correct, and of course that would explain the phenomenon rather simply and easily.

But SR would prohibit us from saying it in the second way. We can never say, in SR, that "we" are moving. It must be the other object.

And, of course, it is an essential postulate of SR that no optical information could possibly, ever, give us any clue as to whether the earth is moving. Without that, they can't even begin to claim that all inertial frames are "equivalent."

But that's rather ironic, isn't it? We can't we say it the second way, if indeed all inertial frames are equivalent?

It seems that, in SR, some pigs are more equal than others (as Orwell might say).

Beyond that, if you say that we are moving wrt to the CMB (rather than vice versa) then we have essentially established a preferred frame (the CMB), which is also prohibited by SR.

But note that this prohibition is NOT founded upon experimental proof. It is, rather, founded upon a deeply held philosophical (metaphysical) belief that SR adherents attempt to impose on all others by fiat.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 11:22 pm
@layman,
I asked:
Quote:
We can't we say it the second way, if indeed all inertial frames are equivalent?


Edit: Meant to say "why (not "we") can't we....
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 11:48 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
But note that this prohibition is NOT founded upon experimental proof. It is, rather, founded upon a deeply held philosophical (metaphysical) belief that SR adherents attempt to impose on all others by fiat.


Where have we seen that type of scenario before? Catholic church versus Gallileo ring any bells?

To his credit, after he publicly recanted (under threat of torture) his claim that the earth was in motion, Gallileo reportedly muttered, under his breath, "and yet it moves" on his way out of the "proceeding."

Today it would be SR adherents, rather than the catholic church, who would condemn Galileo for any pretense that he "knows" the earth is in motion.

Again, it is rather ironic that most of these same SR adherents would immediately turn around to ridicule and mock any geocentrist who claimed that the earth doesn't move. Since the geocentrist is on the earth, SR would actually REQUIRE him to make such an assertion.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 01:19 am
http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/239/250/070_001.jpg

What a ******* sick joke it all is!!!!!!!!


Why do people adore these enormous idiots!!???


An idiot of low standars ( he LIED!!!) , small IQ! No integrity and so on and so forth!

He should have gone to jail! instead of being adored by millions!

THis world is mad!!!
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 01:23 am
@layman,
Most here are religious idiots when it comes to relativity and all the crazy things that come with it!

So many people (including physics profs) have proved these theories to be so extremely wrong!!!

But eh. would you try to turn around a fundamental muslim, or chritian for that matter? NO! Of course not!

Same with the Religion of Relativity people!

(btw they probably think our 'modern 'science' is a good thing. Well, it is a far cry from that!)
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 11:51 am
@layman,
Quote:
Today it would be SR adherents, rather than the catholic church, who would condemn Galileo for any pretense that he "knows" the earth is in motion.


Which is more improbable, you figure?

1. That the entire universe revolves around the earth, while the mighty earth "holds it's ground," or

2. That a rocket on the launching pad at Cape Canaveral pushed the entire earth away from it when it's fuel was ignited? That's a lot of fuel, ya know?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 11:57 am
@parados,
Quote:
Frame of reference is very important. You just want to pretend it isn't.


Important to what, Parados? What you see? What you know? What is true?

Or are all those just the same thing, as you see it?
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 12:22 pm
@oralloy,
dalehileman wrote:
Yet it seems to fall apart in the instance where I don't fire my retros but just rush on past, quickly returning home but using a different route.

Quote:
What is this "different route"???
My apologies Ora, you weren't about. This different route circumnavigates the Universe, presumably with no change in ref frames, thereby illustrating or refuting Twin Paradox
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 12:58 pm
@dalehileman,
How is it that an abstract human invention, such as a co-ordinate system, can somehow reach out and effect a mechanical clock, I wonder? Some interesting questions were asked by this guy (who was a consultant for the construction of the GPS system):

Quote:

At the point of turn-around on the original journey from Earth to AC, the traveler's inferences about time on Earth changed suddenly. Instead of the physically unrealistic instant turn-around, let's assume the spacecraft "orbits" around AC to perform the turn-around...before commencing a journey back to Earth, let's suppose the traveler orbits AC several times. Then each time the traveler heads away from Earth in that orbit, Earth time drops back to 2000; and each time the traveler heads toward Earth, inferred Earth time becomes 2008....as Earth time goes to 2008, many people will have died and others will be born. And on each occasion that Earth time reverts to 2000, some of the dead will be resurrected and some living young children in 2008 will cease to exist in 2000.

[SR] is internally consistent, and no mathematical contradictions can be found no matter how the transformation equations are manipulated, or how many frames or twins are introduced...[but]SR makes demands on our credulity that LR does not...What we have just described are careful and correct inferences of SR as applied to the twin's paradox. This also shows the essentially mathematical nature of the theory, because it does violence to what we fondly call "common sense".


http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/gps-twins.asp
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 02:34 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:
My apologies Ora, you weren't about. This different route circumnavigates the Universe, presumably with no change in ref frames, thereby illustrating or refuting Twin Paradox

I've been about. I've just never been clear on some of the important details of your model.

As I recall, the two twins are rushing past each other, both traveling at light speed (or near light speed) but in opposite directions.

How do they circumnavigate the universe without changing reference frames? Is this a finite universe that loops on itself?

Do they both accelerate at the beginning of their journey, or were they already going at light speed in opposite directions from the start (i.e. do they change reference frames at the very start of their journey, or do they stay in the same reference frame from the start)?

Do they accelerate/decelerate when they meet a second time, or do they just zip past each other the second time too?
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 03:36 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
As I recall, the two twins are rushing past each other, both traveling at light speed (or near light speed) but in opposite directions.
I've used several different models but as I recall, the last was one in which I leave you instantaneously at (nearly) c and you see my clock stop, my ship shorten, etc; and looking out my rear window I see the same effects with you. Then (a) when I reach Mars I fire my retros, returning at (nearly) c; or (2) I bypass Marty's home base, returning home only after circumnavigating the Universe

Quote:
How do they circumnavigate the universe without changing reference frames?
That's really a good q. I had assumed that I, the traveler, stayed in the same frame for the entire trip, raising all sorts of interesting q's about when we meet again with me coming from the opposite direction how we then view one another; but maybe it doesn't really work that way

Quote:
Is this a finite universe that loops on itself?
Yea, sorta like that

Quote:
Do they both accelerate at the beginning of their journey, or were they already going at light speed in opposite directions from the start
Getting back to the twins, I'm not sure how it's typically orchestrated. In my own trip leaving at (near) c I almost instantaneously (to me) return from the opposite direction, finding you having aged a few billion years

Then of course the q is, if our time relationship is perfectly reciprocal, and if it isn't the acceleration that had caused my clock to stop (to you) why we aren't still the same age. Thus the "stationary" or "preferred" frame
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 03:44 pm
@layman,
Quote:
At the point of turn-around on the original journey from Earth to AC, the traveler's inferences about time on Earth changed suddenly
It is troubling, isn't it, that supposedly at this instant the Earthlings' clocks jump ahead 300 years
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2015 04:17 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
It is troubling, isn't it, that supposedly at this instant the Earthlings' clocks jump ahead 300 years


To me it is, yeah. Makes no sense. And the size of the supposed "jump" would be strictly related to the time of flight. It could just as well be 3 million or 3 billion years, all with the same "cause" (a turn-around, or "frame shift").

This is, as I recall, one reason Einstein, immediately rejected acceleration as the "cause" of time dilation. You could make the period of acceleration, relative to the period of inertial travel, arbitrarily long (or short) but there would still be the same effect, without a change in the proportionality of the alleged "cause."
0 Replies
 
 

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