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Can we ever really know reality?

Forums: Philosophy, Reality
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 03:50 pm
@carloslebaron,
Frank is in total contradiction; he doesn't he's real, but is certain about his opinions to be correct - 100% of the time - ergo, he's never. Wrong.
Amazing feat.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 04:17 pm
@carloslebaron,
carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
At no point have I ever said that I think I am not real.

I said I cannot be certain that I actually exist or not.


Explain in specific why you are not certain that you actually exist or not.

Give a reasonable answer.


There is absolutely no way I can prove that I exist...so there is no logical way I can assert that I know for certain that I do. I think I exist...just as I think a universe with stars and planets exist. But there is no logical way for me to assert that I do and that they do.

All of what I suppose exists...the other people, the Earth, the other planets, the sun, the stars, the other galaxies...including this thing I call Frank...may be nothing more than the illusion of a "mind" that is not me.

Once again so that you do not get me wrong: I think I do exist. The very fact that I claim it might be an illusion means that I accept that something is going on that I call thinking...which seems to point to the fact that I exist. If forced to guess...I would guess that I exist.

BUT...I do not know for certain that it is so...which is all I said.

I think you cannot know for certain that you exist either, Carlos.

I would be interested in you proving that you do, though.

Give it a shot.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 05:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You're what is known as an enigma; no question. You don't know you exist, but are 100% positive about all of your opinions.
You're in fools paradise.
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You're what is known as an enigma; no question. You don't know you exist, but are 100% positive about all of your opinions.
You're in fools paradise.


I Agree.
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
There is absolutely no way I can prove that I exist...so there is no logical way I can assert that I know for certain that I do. I think I exist...just as I think a universe with stars and planets exist. But there is no logical way for me to assert that I do and that they do.


That is Medieval philosophy. I guess that your personal ideas have overcome your perception of reality. Close your books for a while, get outside, enjoy the real sun light, walk around, learn drawing...

Quote:
All of what I suppose exists...the other people, the Earth, the other planets, the sun, the stars, the other galaxies...including this thing I call Frank...may be nothing more than the illusion of a "mind" that is not me.


Then, that mind that "is not you" suffering of illusions, is real or not?

Quote:
Once again so that you do not get me wrong: I think I do exist. The very fact that I claim it might be an illusion means that I accept that something is going on that I call thinking...which seems to point to the fact that I exist. If forced to guess...I would guess that I exist


If you exist, then you are real.

Quote:
BUT...I do not know for certain that it is so...which is all I said.

I think you cannot know for certain that you exist either, Carlos.


Oh no, do not involve me in your weird way to think that you don't exist but that you exist in illusions that you are not sure if they exist as well...

No... no... I do know that you do exist.

I know what reality is.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:48 pm
@carloslebaron,
Is't it strange that only Frank isn't sure he exists - and very funny.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:49 pm
@carloslebaron,
Is't it strange that only Frank isn't sure he exists - and very funny.
He's what is known in the vernacular, a joke.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 09:10 pm
@carloslebaron,
carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
There is absolutely no way I can prove that I exist...so there is no logical way I can assert that I know for certain that I do. I think I exist...just as I think a universe with stars and planets exist. But there is no logical way for me to assert that I do and that they do.


That is Medieval philosophy. I guess that your personal ideas have overcome your perception of reality. Close your books for a while, get outside, enjoy the real sun light, walk around, learn drawing...

Quote:
All of what I suppose exists...the other people, the Earth, the other planets, the sun, the stars, the other galaxies...including this thing I call Frank...may be nothing more than the illusion of a "mind" that is not me.


Then, that mind that "is not you" suffering of illusions, is real or not?

Quote:
Once again so that you do not get me wrong: I think I do exist. The very fact that I claim it might be an illusion means that I accept that something is going on that I call thinking...which seems to point to the fact that I exist. If forced to guess...I would guess that I exist


If you exist, then you are real.

Quote:
BUT...I do not know for certain that it is so...which is all I said.

I think you cannot know for certain that you exist either, Carlos.


Oh no, do not involve me in your weird way to think that you don't exist but that you exist in illusions that you are not sure if they exist as well...

No... no... I do know that you do exist.

I know what reality is.


My guess is you have absolutely no idea of what REALITY is.

The concept obviously is beyond you.
JLNobody
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 11:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The concept itself may have no referent; it may be JUST a concept--like unicorn or the theistic God.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 02:10 am
@JLNobody,
Well said. Ironically, we can draw a picture of a unicorn ! Smile

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 07:34 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

The concept itself may have no referent; it may be JUST a concept--like unicorn or the theistic God.


It may well be, JL, and since we humans may not be particularly evolved creatures (not particularly adept at conceptualization)...even JUST as a concept it may be wanting.

(All said using the language and concepts we have available for use.)
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 10:09 am
@fresco,
Yes, we can draw unicorns, because, while we do not experience unicorns we DO experience horses and horns. We just have to put them together.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 11:16 am
@JLNobody,
And we can experience minds and mental life, too. In fact it is the only thing we can really experience.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 07:51 pm
@Olivier5,
Amen! I guess "mental life" is a synonym for "experience" which amounts to "our reality."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 08:02 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Amen! I guess "mental life" is a synonym for "experience" which amounts to "our reality."


It might be a synonym of some kind for "our impression of reality"...but it really doesn't seem to work for "reality." Whatever actually IS, JL...may not be a product of nor dependent upon human experience at all.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 09:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Whatever!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2015 06:10 am
@JLNobody,
Exactly. And for all intent and purpose, while we know the two are different things, we must assume that our mental reality 'maps' reasonably well to another, external reality. As I have argued many times, realist or not, naïve or not, we all look for our keys when we misplaced them...
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2015 01:43 pm
@ExistentialPotential,
the question is irrelevant. we live and act according to our beliefs. We can use abstract thinking to help us to grasp the world as best we can, but at some point in time we must be pragmatic. We are compelled to act in what ever reality we believe it to be.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2015 03:56 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

the question is irrelevant. we live and act according to our beliefs. We can use abstract thinking to help us to grasp the world as best we can, but at some point in time we must be pragmatic. We are compelled to act in what ever reality we believe it to be.

'
Are you saying that the people who post here who claim this thing we call "reality", may well be nothing more than an illusion...or something else beyond the ability of puny humans to comprehend...

...are no longer allowed to "act" as though it may well be an illusion, but are willing to live within the illusion?

Is that something that you have decided must be done as you dictate...or are you merely passing on the dictates of another?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2015 04:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I would say that the world is illusory insofar as our perceptions of it do not come complete. At most, it comes as the excessively complex basis for our simplifying interpretations.
 

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