Can we ever really know reality?

@Frank Apisa,

Sorry for the massive delay in response time.

Quote:

But if one is unwilling to start at "Whatever actually IS...is what IS"...then you are going nowhere. And there are plenty of people here in this forum who have all sorts of disagreement with the statement

From my position at least it seems that everyone starts from that position. In talking about the existence and/or nature of anything, we are assuming that something IS indeed the case, so it seems to me that that is a necessary starting point. I'm not sure anyone is unwilling to start there, on the contrary, everyone does and must start from there.

The issue is to assert that we cannot go beyond the statement "Whatever actually is...is what is". I think you seem to take issue with this also, when you say that it is laughable for us to assume we have answers to the nature of reality. You're suggesting that we are not readily able to discern reality in any reliable way, yet that is itself a statement about reality which goes beyond simply stating that "whatever actually is...is what is".

You seem to accept some forms of understanding and explanation of reality, such as evolutionary accounts of life, so you must also accept that there are ways of discerning what IS in fact the case, beyond the case that there simply is something.

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@ExistentialPotential,

ExistentialPotential wrote:

Sorry for the massive delay in response time.

No problem. Take your time.

Quote:

Quote:
But if one is unwilling to start at "Whatever actually IS...is what IS"...then you are going nowhere. And there are plenty of people here in this forum who have all sorts of disagreement with the statement

From my position at least it seems that everyone starts from that position. In talking about the existence and/or nature of anything, we are assuming that something IS indeed the case, so it seems to me that that is a necessary starting point. I'm not sure anyone is unwilling to start there, on the contrary, everyone does and must start from there.

But that is not correct...as I said: NOT EVERYONE IN A2K IS WILLING TO START FROM THERE. Have a conversation with Fresco on this issue, as an example.

Quote:

The issue is to assert that we cannot go beyond the statement "Whatever actually is...is what is".

I have never said that. Quote what I have said...and argue with that. Do not paraphrase...because that distorts what is said.

Quote:

I think you seem to take issue with this also, when you say that it is laughable for us to assume we have answers to the nature of reality. You're suggesting that we are not readily able to discern reality in any reliable way, yet that is itself a statement about reality which goes beyond simply stating that "whatever actually is...is what is".

Once again...you are arguing against a straw man of your own making. Quote what I said...and talk with me about anything with which you disagree. But do not invent stuff and argue against while suggesting you are arguing with me.

Quote:

You seem to accept some forms of understanding and explanation of reality, such as evolutionary accounts of life, so you must also accept that there are ways of discerning what IS in fact the case, beyond the case that there simply is something.

I'll wait for a quote...then I will reply to your response to the actual quote.

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Reality is what we perceive directly or indirectly from the universe.

From here, our language rules over the different concepts subjected to reality when we created new definitions to understand its different aspects.

A dream is real, not physically/objective real in order to be seen by others, but as a phenomenon that happens to everybody.

A dream is a reality subjected to limitations, which are the boundaries of the objective universe, a universe that can be perceived by our senses in a general compendium.

a dream, however, cannot affect the orbit of planets, the growing of trees, the fly of a bird, the mixture of Oxygen and Hydrogen. The dream might affect the behavior of the dreamer and the listeners of the dreamer's words. Still, a dream itself is subjective, and the objective action of the dreamer is what causes the changes in the physical world.

Even when subjective and objective exist and act together, they both are limited, there is not a barrier but a crossing line where one causes influence, not a trespassing but a contact or medium.

To conclude, we know reality. The point is to recognize what kind of reality and its own limits.

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Reality is what we perceive directly or indirectly from the universe.

Really!

And suppose it isn't? Suppose what we humans "perceive directly or indirectly from the universe" is nothing but an illusion?

Are you saying that wouldn't count?

Quote:

To conclude, we know reality.

Maybe we don't.

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Illusions must be real illusions so we can address them for being illusions...what this means is that in the least we know something about reality...but then that is not the problem is it...the problem is closure. We want to know all about it. That of course is not possible without dissolving the very question and the questioner. One would have to be the whole of reality and a thinking questioning intrigued part at the same time to know what reality is. Both things are mutually exclusive. Having the part is not the same as being just the part...

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@Frank Apisa,

Illusions are misinterpretations of phenomena or events, which are real anyway. Example, you feel your car moving backwards even when you are pressing hard the break pedal, but the illusion happened because the car besides you was slow moving forward. The event is real, what you thought was happening is what became an illusion.

Lets go further, lets say you suffer of delusion attacks. Delusions are real phenomena as well, of course is related to your internal mental function, but delusion itself is real. What is not "physically real" is what your mind is portraying in front of you when you have a delusion attack.

Again, we know reality, the point is learning to discriminate the subjective and the objective, applying proper discrimination when observing, having correct deductions by avoiding influence of other's ideas or theories, and so forth. It is a hard process sometimes, but we can learn more and more about knowing reality

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Illusions are misinterpretations of phenomena or events, which are real anyway. Example, you feel your car moving backwards even when you are pressing hard the break pedal, but the illusion happened because the car besides you was slow moving forward. The event is real, what you thought was happening is what became an illusion.

Lets go further, lets say you suffer of delusion attacks. Delusions are real phenomena as well, of course is related to your internal mental function, but delusion itself is real. What is not "physically real" is what your mind is portraying in front of you when you have a delusion attack.

Again, we know reality, the point is learning to discriminate the subjective and the objective, applying proper discrimination when observing, having correct deductions by avoiding influence of other's ideas or theories, and so forth. It is a hard process sometimes, but we can learn more and more about knowing reality

We do not KNOW REALITY.

Yes...an illusion is real...BUT we do not KNOW if it is an illusion or not...so we do not KNOW the REALITY.

All the rest of what you said is interesting and sounds informative and such...but it is, in the end, just nonsense.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We do not KNOW REALITY.

Yes...an illusion is real...BUT we do not KNOW if it is an illusion or not...so we do not KNOW the REALITY.

All the rest of what you said is interesting and sounds informative and such...but it is, in the end, just nonsense.

I see. Your choice is to live in the world of fantasy, where you imagine that you can jump from ground to planet Jupiter, and at the same time you are aware that NASA did sent a spacecraft to Jupiter from time to time using a launch platform, special fuel and more.

You are unable to distinguish one reality (your own personal fantasy) with the reality of the physical event in sending a spacecraft to the outer space.

Enjoy your world of fantasy, from my part I DO KNOW WHAT REALITY IS and I do appreciate it.

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@carloslebaron,

Talk about jumping from one place to another.

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@ExistentialPotential,

IMO, following Wittgenstein's comments on "language games", the only way to get a handle on "reality" is to examine the functionality of the word itself in normal (non-metaphysical) contexts. From that position, "reality" is merely a word used to denote a state of agreement as to "what is the case" between potentially argumentative observers in mutual contexts. Unless that context is a religious one (about believers discussing the "reality of God" for example) those states of agreement are transient and paradigmatic as epistemology (knowledge of what we call the world) progresses and alters observational states.

In short, nobody goes around in modern daily life wittering about "the reality of rocks" ( or "trees" , or "the moons of Jupiter"). It is only in particular contexts like
...." she thinks she can cook but in reality she's hopeless"....
or
... "it looks like birds really navigate using entanglement properties of electrons in their optical systems"
that the word reality has any value at all.

Such a functional pragmatic view - that non-metaphysical usage of the word is as far as we can go - is usually met with a cacophony of heckling from the barber shop audience. Some members of that audience simply don't understand that any metaphysical view of "reality" is equivalent to a religious one seeking "absolutes".

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@ExistentialPotential,

ExistentialPotential wrote:

All the ways in which humanity has attempted to grasp reality, from the earliest religions to the contemporary views of the natural and social sciences are all tied in some way to the perspective that humans have on existence.Religious worldview’s have been jettisoned for the most part as we have come to embrace rational enquiry and scientific methods in order to understand the nature of existence and ultimately try and ‘pin down’ reality, to understand it as it is. But is not even the latest in science is still tied down to the ways in which we construe the world in order for us to then take the further step and make claims about ‘reality’?

It seems that in order to make a claim or statement about the nature of reality, there must be some presupposition about reality in the first place. The presupposition(s), in the case of science, seems to exert its influence in the way that the particular method is defined and is then used to examine some part of the world. So what seems to be happening is that humans are inevitably constrained by their perspective. From this it may still be possible to arrive at an accurate view of reality.

But what are the implications of the inescapable perspective that humans have on the world when it comes to attempts to know reality?

Does it in fact mean that we can never know reality?

Well two aspects need to be mentioned here. One part is that physicists have revealed that even observation can "taint" the result of an experiment. And the behavior of electrons seem to be in a dual state and only become one or another based on how they are being measured. Perhaps we have not fully understood the nature of electrons which cause this dual perspective or they actually really are dual natured.

The other aspect is we are limited by our sense data. We have nothing else to rely on. Sure we can use instruments to experience data that is outside the scope of our senses but this data is still within the scope of what we understand about reality. Such as light, we can't see microwaves but we can use tools to collect the data of microwaves and convert that into something we can experience such as an image within the light scope we can see.

So I say regardless of how reality is or isn't is irrelevant because the only tool we have is our sense data. Without this data we would have nothing at all. A great way to examine this is to use an analogy of a baby that is born without it's sense organs working. So it's blind, deaf, ect. It's understanding of the world would not occur. It wouldn't even have a concept of self because there is nothing that suggests or gives data that it is an entity in reality. It wouldn't have a concept of other either because there is no way to distinguish or experience something other than itself. It wouldn't dream of anything or think of anything.

So we are left with only one thing, reality IS what we experience because nothing else exists without the ability to experience the data that reality exhibits. If there is some underline data that we can't experience because we don't have any ability to experience it then it is meaningless until we can.

Just like the word "fate" is self defeating because it can't be proven. You would have to go outside it's scope to prove it otherwise you can say any and all things are your fate but this becomes meaningless. The word fate itself is a useless word but that doesn't stop people from using it. If escaping your fate is possible wouldn't that ultimately be your fate? It becomes silly.

The same is true for reality. To escape reality would ultimately be your reality. What ever that is becomes meaningless. So it is a fruitless endeavor to even wonder if reality is real or true.

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@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
We do not KNOW REALITY.

Yes...an illusion is real...BUT we do not KNOW if it is an illusion or not...so we do not KNOW the REALITY.

All the rest of what you said is interesting and sounds informative and such...but it is, in the end, just nonsense.

I see. Your choice is to live in the world of fantasy, where you imagine that you can jump from ground to planet Jupiter, and at the same time you are aware that NASA did sent a spacecraft to Jupiter from time to time using a launch platform, special fuel and more.

You are unable to distinguish one reality (your own personal fantasy) with the reality of the physical event in sending a spacecraft to the outer space.

Enjoy your world of fantasy, from my part I DO KNOW WHAT REALITY IS and I do appreciate it.

You are the one suggesting you KNOW the REALITY...and you further suggest I am the one living in fantasy.

Wow!

Enjoy YOUR fantasy, Carlos.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You are the one suggesting you KNOW the REALITY...and you further suggest I am the one living in fantasy.

Wow!

Enjoy YOUR fantasy, Carlos.

You must understand that we have reasoning.

Thanks to our reasoning we can set rules to make order with out thoughts and actions.

We -not a god or a rock- have set parameters to recognize what is objective and what is subjective.

The objective is understood of being what it corresponds to the physical world. The world we perceive with our senses. We can perceive things directly or indirectly (by the effects of their behavior.)

On the other hand, we are also influenced by the subjective, this is to say, our ideas, dreams, hopes, feelings like attraction, rejection, etc.

Both are reality.

The point is to recognize the proper place for the objective and the subjective. And regardless of how deep you go in philosophy, the whole perception we obtain from the universe is solely represented by the objective and the subjective.

Trying to find something else is vain. Actually even with the greatest instruments invented up to today, and reading the most sophisticated philosophical views, nobody has found something else. We have several "new theories" but they are all subjected to the objective and the subjective.

Show me something else other than the objective and the subjective, so I might consider your mockeries as "validated".

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:

You are the one suggesting you KNOW the REALITY...and you further suggest I am the one living in fantasy.

Wow!

Enjoy YOUR fantasy, Carlos.

You must understand that we have reasoning.

Thanks to our reasoning we can set rules to make order with out thoughts and actions.

We -not a god or a rock- have set parameters to recognize what is objective and what is subjective.

The objective is understood of being what it corresponds to the physical world. The world we perceive with our senses. We can perceive things directly or indirectly (by the effects of their behavior.)

On the other hand, we are also influenced by the subjective, this is to say, our ideas, dreams, hopes, feelings like attraction, rejection, etc.

Both are reality.

Actually...that may not be correct. I do not know...and neither do you.

But you are going to insist you do...while I will continue to acknowledge that I do not know.

And you will probably still continue to suggest that I live in fantasy.

Amazing.

Quote:

The point is to recognize the proper place for the objective and the subjective. And regardless of how deep you go in philosophy, the whole perception we obtain from the universe is solely represented by the objective and the subjective.

Stop using words to be nothing more than words, Carlos. You will improve your thinking if you do.

REALITY is whatever actually IS.

I have no idea of what actually IS...and my guess is that you do not either.

But we have people like you who come here often to tell us all what the REALITY actually is...because they know.

Best thing I can say about that is: I guess the rest of the Internet is infested that same way.

Quote:

Trying to find something else is vain.

That is a comment about whether or not we humans can actually KNOW or understand the REALITY.

More than likely, we cannot.

Ya gotta live with that...or pretend it is otherwise. I choose the former and acknowledge that you seem to be choosing the latter.

Quote:

Actually even with the greatest instruments invented up to today, and reading the most sophisticated philosophical views, nobody has found something else. We have several "new theories" but they are all subjected to the objective and the subjective.

Show me something else other than the objective and the subjective, so I might consider your mockeries as "validated".

Frankly, I do not particularly care whether you consider my "mockeries" (as you put it) as valid or not. I am simply stating that I do not know what the REALITY is...and I seriously doubt you do either.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I see.

You insists to imagine that reality is beyond the objective and the subjective.

But you use the word "reality", and it appears you have no idea of what reality is.

You better find a dictionary and look for the meaning of reality.

You will notice that reality is what it is, but still is under a set of categories.

You say that the Moon is made of cheese,. such is not real, the only thing real is that you believe that the Moon is made of cheese, but your craziness won't be supported by tests on samples obtained from the Moon.

Then, there you have it. Your subjective appreciation of the Moon is lunacy, even when your opinion is "real".

Your doubts about my appreciation of reality are as subjective as believing that the Moon is made of cheese. And are categorized in the same class, which means: wake up man, stop dreaming awake so many fantasies.

See? I know reality.

Bad for you, who seems to be a dude waiting for something else when is about reality.

The best for you, is to pick up a number, take a seat, and wait for your turn, nothing and nobody will help you... but you can still waiting... I know that you have no idea of what reality is... but you might have patience... keep waiting... my best wishes.

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

Like I said, my guess is that every forum on the Internet is infected with people like you who claim to know what the REALITY is.

Other than it IS whatever it IS...I have no idea of what the REALITY actually is...and I strongly suspect you do not either.

But I have the ethical wherewithal to acknowledge that...and you apparently do not.

Your problem...not mine.

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@Frank Apisa,

http://s26.postimg.org/knoey5int/sheepfence.jpg

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Like I said, my guess is that every forum on the Internet is infected with people like you who claim to know what the REALITY is.

Enough!

Time for the empirical part.

You are in front of your computer writing nonsenses to me.

I ask you now, why you think that the computer in front of is not real?

Give me solid reasons that backup your doubts.

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
Like I said, my guess is that every forum on the Internet is infected with people like you who claim to know what the REALITY is.

Enough!

Time for the empirical part.

You are in front of your computer writing nonsenses to me.

I ask you now, why you think that the computer in front of is not real?

Give me solid reasons that backup your doubts.

I do not think it is not real...nor have I ever asserted it is not real

But I do not KNOW it is real.

I know I do not know it is real...which is what I actually stated.

There is a difference.

In any case, on many occasions I have posted that I often use the word "know" to denote things like "I know the name on my birth certificate is Frank Apisa" and "I know I am at the keyboard in my den typing."

But in the structured setting of what we are discussing, the discussion must be more rigorous.

If you do not understand this, there are some interesting threads about movies and television shows you might want to involve yourself with.

1 Reply

@fresco,

http://www.renegadedad.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Jackass.jpg

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