2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

Please -- always give links when quoting!

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Roger, one clear candidate is one thing. Counting the votes is another. For instance, the republicans have one clear candidate. They win if they can get out all the votes. They don't if the democrats get out all the votes. In the primaries, it's the vote that's important.

That's why one of the big drives among many democratic groups is to educate the public about voting, and to get them enthused about the idea that if they vote they can win.

And that's something beginning to emerge about Dean. Despite the small myths, Dean has been appealing to a cross section from the beginning. Any observance at a meet-up shows this. Liberals like him; so do centrists. The more conservative democrats see something there. Different ethnic groups think he offers promise.

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It will be interesting to see whether holding the Republican convention in NYC turns out to be a good thing or total folly...

Jeez, if the reaction I saw yesterday in Austin is any measure, Dean could walk into the Oval Office tomorrow and sit down comfortably. 'Course, they'd have to fumigate first...

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Quote:

Should the next president be elected by Electoral College, or popular vote?

Either one of those would be an improvement of someone being appointed by the Supreme Court - not in the Constitution = unPresident!

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Fumigate is only a good start; they must also disinfect the whole place of any remnants of the previous administration. I'd also suggest burning the place down, but there's too much historical significance to toss out the baby with the bath water. We need to rid of the stinch ASAP.

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Oh, I think a really good scrubbing would do okay after fumigation. There are some wonderful paintings and other art work in the White House which I wouldn't want burned... But I take your meaning. Particularly since I'm having to live with a dog who tangled with a skunk, has been washed (by me) once with vinegar and soda, then washed (by a pro) with enzymes and conditioner, and still has that slight aroma... I figure Bush and Cheney and Co. are much worse than a single 3 a.m. skunk, so, once the good stuff has been removed, I might go along with a burning...

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Wesley Clark gets a minus-point from me - or his supporters do, in any case. The Washington Post reported that they have launched a spate of TV ads intended to push him to state his candidacy and to engender some support for him for when he does, and:

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It is a gauzy, patriotic advertising spot, describing Clark's career in the military -- his service in Vietnam, his term as NATO commander, when he "ended Slobodan Milosevic's genocidal dictatorship."

Now there was me thinking that it was the Serbians who (eventually) ended Milosevic's presidency, with their massive protests. And did so, if I may add, more than a full year after Wesley's war ended. "Otpor", anyone?

This is American presumptiousness at its worst - what is it with Americans? Its almost as embarassing as Republicans who insist "Reagan liberated Eastern Europe". (Anyone remember 1989?)

Milosevic was not thrown out during the NATO bombings. In fact, many argue that the bombs prolonged Milosevic's rule, since they made even the inhabitants of rebellious Belgrade close ranks behind him. Doesnt mean the war might not still have been justified (to save the Kosovars) - just means that the one thing it didnt do was "end Slobodan's genocidal dictatorship".

(Apart from being presumptious, the ad is also incorrect, on the "dictatorship" count. Milosevic's rule was many bad things, but he was re-elected several times in formally fairly free elections. Only in the local elections of '96 and the presidentials of 2000 did he have to seek to suppress the election results - instantly spurring two of the three great street insurgencies during his rule.)

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90% goes away in about 3 days. Thats not to long a wait. Freedom by Wednesday Smile

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Bill -- If you mean the skunk smell goes away, nuh-uh! Every time the dog gets wet -- for about a month -- the smell comes back. Lordy, it's tenacious.

I've been too lazy/busy to go back and revisit/remind-myself WHAT it was back in the '90's that Wesley Clark did which made me think he was a damn fool. Ring a bell with anyone? Or do I have to google endlessly??! Nimh's post may be on the edge of it...

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You folks perhaps saw or heard, but a Newsweek poll from yesterday or day previous had 49% of polled voters expressing that they didn't want Bush to gain a second term, as compared to 42% who did.

If the slide down for Bush continues, just watch how ugly his team will start playing this game. But also, they will work their asses off on the organization end - church basements gone high-tech.

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That's what I've been a-settin' here thinking about this morning, Blatham. And very worried that there might be some dramatics -- alerts, Wellstone, etc. I don't think it's "weird" anymore to expect the worst from these guys.

For those who are interesting in cyberspace, cyberlaw, in a blog to which presidential candidates are contributing, try this: http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/cat_presidential_politics.shtml

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Dean's four day, ten city, "Sleepless Summer Tour" is half over.

He has had unprecedented crowds for such an early stage of a presidential campaign, and from all reports they were deliriously happy.
In Seattle tonight they had fifteen thousand people....wow!

here are three pix from Seattle that someone posted on the Dean blog when they got from the rally a few minutes ago:

http://demgeeks.com/photos/deanrally1.jpg
http://demgeeks.com/photos/deanrally2.jpg
http://demgeeks.com/photos/deanrally3.jpg

jjorge

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So, Tartarin. I keep noticing these allusions to Wellstone, couched in maleficence.

Do you think Bush ordered the murder of Paul Wellstone? Anyone here who believes this?

Just trying to get a bead on who I'm talking to.

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Here's a description from Seattle posted a short time ago:

"...Never before in the six years I've been involved in politics have I ever seen anything like this. Everywhere I look were more people waving Dean signs and wearing Dean shirts. From the main stage to press riser was a shoulder-to-shoulder sea of Dean signs as far as the eye could see. At least 4,000 people just in that front area! Moving to the press riser, I found an even larger sea of Dean signs behind the press risers, flowing all the way down the street for nearly a block. At least twice as many people as the group in front of the press risers! Media reports and police official estimates put the crowd between 12,000 to 15,000 people. All I can say is that Washington is certainly Dean Country. Photos are coming -- stay tuned...
-Posted by Karl Frisch ..."

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JJ,
Love the pics and details...

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Jonathan Schell in the latest Nation (9/1-8)

Quote:

....But it's one thing for Bush to fail, another for the Democrats to succeed. Debate within the party is sharpening. The questions for the antiwar wing of the party are especially acute. In a winner-take-all electoral system like ours, anyone who holds views that are outside the mainstream is faced with an obvious and inescapable dilemma: Should one vote for a candidate one agrees with wholeheartedly but seems likely to lose the election or vote for a candidate one doesn't much care for but seems likely to win? Which is worse, a noble defeat or an empty victory?...

...Other candidates propose to dive deliberately and immediately into the mainstream. One is Joseph Lieberman. In his words, the party must "go right up the middle." He says anyone who (like Dean) "was opposed to the war against Saddam, who has called for the repeal of all of the Bush tax cuts...could lead the Democratic Party into the political wilderness." Lieberman himself probably believes that the war was right, and that full repeal of the tax cuts would be wrong, but in this appeal he is clearly asking those of us who disagree with him to forget our beliefs and support him on purely pragmatic grounds. "The middle," of course, is, of mathematical necessity, the place that any candidate must be in if he is to win. And it's easier to move to the mainstream than to move the mainstream to you....

...."Southern strategy" adopted by the same Richard Nixon who defeated McGovern, won the South from the Democrats, [laid] the basis for successes in the next several elections. And so even as civil rights was winning substantively, it lost politically. The public accepted the message but rejected the messengers, as it would also do with McGovern. Yet the victory was real: The nation was changed for the better. The national holiday born of the movement is Martin Luther King Day, not Richard Milhous Nixon Day. There will never be a Richard Milhous Nixon Day. Neither will there probably be a George McGovern Day, but posterity will honor him.

...Victory does not come through the ballot box alone. It sometimes comes by circuitous paths. Electoral politics should be played to win, yet changing hearts and minds can at times be as important as changing the President. McGovern is right. When in doubt, it's best to err on the side of speaking the truth....

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030901&s=schell

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A post, few minutes ago, on Dean's blogforamerica.com site. I hadn't figured this out, had you?

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The Republicans must think we are stupid. They criticized Dean for wanting to repeal the tax cuts, because it will affect the child tax credit. First of all, the deficit of this so called tax cut will have to be paid back. Interest rates will balloon and jobs will be lost. Now for the child tax credit. This year the credit was $1000, next year it will be $750 and the year after that $500. Before the tax cut the child tax credit was $600. Moreover most states raised their property and sales tax to adjust to the Bush tax cuts. The only people that really benefited were the top 30%, the people who really didn't need help. So you see Bush just continues to screw us. I'd rather pay more in taxes to have our services returned.

Posted by Patrick at August 25, 2003 08:51 AM

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Sofia:

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Do you think Bush ordered the murder of Paul Wellstone? Anyone here who believes this?

Just trying to get a bead on who I'm talking to.

Sofia -- You question me persistently about "conspiracy theories." Here is a FINAL response to you on the subject in general. I don't know your age, but it's probably not anywhere near mine. I've lived through enough ohmigosh discoveries about the behaviors of presidents and candidates to learn that today's "conspiracy theory" is too often tomorrow's sad fact. Result: I don't close doors on theories about unexplained events which lead to any candidate's or president's advantage. Okay? It's called keeping an open mind. Honest. This is the very last time I will respond to you or Craven or anyone else who tries to kill off the discussion of issues which you find uncomfortable or outre. Please: no more questions for which you already have the answer.

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Incidentally, Sofia, your use of "bead" comes from taking aim at. Its context is guns use. I'm supporting a candidate who's against gun control. But I'm against gun violence.

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Tartarin--

When you constantly allude to something, it is only reasonable that someone is going to question what you mean.

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This is the very last time I will respond to you or Craven or anyone else who tries to kill off the discussion of issues which you find uncomfortable or outre.

I am trying to OPEN discussion. You are very certainly the one is who is trying to kill it.

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That's what I've been a-settin' here thinking about this morning, Blatham. And very worried that there might be some dramatics -- alerts, Wellstone, etc. I don't think it's "weird" anymore to expect the worst from these guys.

Here, you insinuate that Bush or Co. change alerts or kill people for political purposes. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it--but, you are not entitled to silence other's questions about it, whether or not you answer.

How you answer either gives you a level of credibility, or strips it. Same with everyone else.

You have used the very common 'getting a bead' on someone, who I assumed you were not planning to shoot. But, for clarification purposes, I'm not 'gunning' for you. Just trying to get a view on where you're coming from with your Wellstone allusions. He was killed, last I heard, through error of an inexperienced pilot.

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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

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