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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 04:31 pm
But then I would bet (tho I admit I'm too lazy to look it up right now) that the upper 25% enjoy a greater share of the national wealth than ever before (or than in the larger part of the past century, anyhow) ... and one kinda springs forth from the other. You take a greater share of the national wealth than ever - you pay more taxes than ever.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 05:00 pm
timberlandko wrote:
"Tax cuts for the rich" is just a buzzphrase.

I disagree. Note that the little word "income" in "income tax" makes a big difference. The income tax cut, as far as I know, is less progressive than the income tax burden. But the income tax is just one of several taxes that got cut. Inheritance tax cuts, capital gains tax cuts, and estate tax cuts, and the lack of payroll tax cuts, are what make the whole bundle heavily tilted towards the upper rungs of the income distribution.

Always watch that word "income" in words like "income tax" and "tax cuts"! It creeps into and out of the Bush administration's vocabulary, depending on what's politically convenient at the moment.

[sorry for the many edits. I should read more often before posting]
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 05:01 pm
You're both right, of course. The buzzphrases cut both ways :wink:
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 09:36 am
Quote:
Democratic turnout seen so-so, despite party assertions
Nonpartisan study indicates intensity level was less than described
By Anne E. Kornblut, Globe Staff, 3/10/2004

WASHINGTON -- Turnout in the Democratic primaries, heralded by party leaders as a strong showing of unity and outrage against President Bush, was actually in line with past primaries, lower than many recent Republican contests, and included some record lows in later states, according to a full accounting released yesterday.


At the height of this year's presidential primaries, on Feb. 20, Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe declared that "people are turning out in record numbers" -- even though in the Virginia primary 10 days earlier, the 7.5 percent of Democrats who voted failed to match the only previous Democratic primary, and the figure was well below the 13.2 percent of Republicans who voted in their party's 2000 primary.

Only New Hampshire and Wisconsin saw truly impressive increases, according to Curtis Gans, who conducted the survey for the nonpartisan Committee for the Study of the American Electorate.

That may bode well for Democrats in the general election, given that both are important battleground states, but the lack of significant improvement elsewhere could signal that Democrats are not quite as mobilized as party officials once proclaimed.

"Democratic turnout in the party's presidential primaries through Super Tuesday was generally low -- in the aggregate, the third-lowest on record," Gans said.

Democratic officials insist the data should be read differently. In an era of decreasing voter turnout, they argue, several swing states -- especially New Hampshire, Iowa, and Wisconsin -- saw numbers that held firm or increased somewhat. And party leaders refused to back away from their insistence that the primary turnout reflected growing momentum.

"Regardless of which study you look at, it is very encouraging to see that there is a call for change among Democrats," Democratic strategist Jenny Backus said. A spokesman for McAuliffe, Tony Welch, said that compared to typical data in national elections, "Democrats were more enthused, more energetic than anyone can remember in recent history."

Some of the lower-turnout states were later in the primary process, they said, when voters may have concluded the nomination would go to Senator John F. Kerry after his victories in Wisconsin, Virginia, and Tennessee.

Meanwhile, earlier states saw greater numbers, in part because so much money and time were poured into those races and the nomination, at that point, truly appeared to be a free-for-all. According to Iowa Secretary of State Chet Culver, that was especially true in his state's caucuses -- at least by his method of calculation. The number who voted in the Democratic race doubled from the last election cycle, to approximately 125,000 voters in this year's caucuses.

"It's pretty impressive, when you really consider what we were asking people to do on a cold winter night," Culver said. "We set an all-time record for an Iowa caucus -- at least since we really started keeping numbers, prior to 2000."

But about the same number went to the polls in the 1988 caucuses, undermining the argument that this year's was really a record-setter. Indeed, whether the votes were record highs or lackluster seems to be largely in the eye of the beholder: states that saw "record" increases had in some cases only had one or two primaries ever before.

One such example is South Carolina, which Democrats this year claimed as a huge triumph after drawing 9.49 percent of party voters to the polls, up from 4.44 percent in 1992.

But by a different measure, turnout there, the third state to hold a contest, was mediocre at best. The "record" number of voters was almost inevitable given that South Carolina has only held one other Democratic primary. And Republicans appear to have a sizable edge in turnout: About 19.5 percent voted in the 2000 Republican primary and 9.95 percent voted in the same contest in 1996.

Apart from New Hampshire, Gans said, "Other states could claim `records' but those claims are somewhat specious," arguing that like South Carolina, Arizona and Delaware also made shallow claims of shattering past records by comparing 2004 with uncontested races or only one prior race.

In New York, on the other hand, the Super Tuesday primary on March 2 marked a historic low: just 5.39 percent showed up to vote in the Democratic primary, down from 7.40 percent in the 2000 race between Al Gore and Bill Bradley. In Massachusetts, Republican participation plummeted this year, understandably, given that Bush has no competition on the GOP ballot. Democrats voted at a rate of 13.65 percent, up from 12.55 percent in 2000, but down from the 17.99 percent who voted in 1992 and the record 22.24 percent who voted in 1980.


Source
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 11:48 pm
One thing I find interesting, is that the "Log Cabin Republicans," group is going to run ads to try and sway people against the anti-gay marriage amendment. What I find confusing is that, since Bush has already stated that this is one of the key elements of his platform for re-election, this group of Repubs would seem to be actively campaigning against the president. Might this be a trend we will see from other "Repub" groups that the neo-cons have alienated?
Granted, Rove and company probably think that the gay vote is disposable, since they can now count on the fundamentalist christian vote instead. But what about the so-caled "paleoconservatives" who are in favour of balanced budgets, smaller governments, etc... Might they desert the Bush ship as well? If so, how can they be encouraged to do so?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 11:57 pm
hobit, It seems you've been missing the message from this administration. The cost of war justifies the expenditures, because it's for our "security." The tax cuts are keeping this economy improving every day as we speak, and big job creation is on the way - shortly. There's always a lag time between tax cuts and job creation. Just be patient. Inflation is low. Got that?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 12:04 am
Well, no, but then again I would be a lousy republican. I have a conscience.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 12:05 am
A conscience just gets in the way of political rhetoric. Wink
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 09:15 am
Actually, it's intellect and integrity that get in the way of the kind of baseless political rhetoric flowing from the left as from Ponce de Leon's private swimming hole. (Having a conscience is more a facet of the integrity piece.) Cool
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 09:37 am
hobitbob wrote:
One thing I find interesting, is that the "Log Cabin Republicans," group is going to run ads to try and sway people against the anti-gay marriage amendment. What I find confusing is that, since Bush has already stated that this is one of the key elements of his platform for re-election, this group of Repubs would seem to be actively campaigning against the president. Might this be a trend we will see from other "Repub" groups that the neo-cons have alienated?
Granted, Rove and company probably think that the gay vote is disposable, since they can now count on the fundamentalist christian vote instead. But what about the so-caled "paleoconservatives" who are in favour of balanced budgets, smaller governments, etc... Might they desert the Bush ship as well? If so, how can they be encouraged to do so?


By your logic here then Bush should be able to count on the 45% or so of Demomcrats that favor prohibitions on gay marriage?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 09:44 am
Bush is responsible for the killing of over 10,000 innocent Iraqis. I don't see his conscience bothering him even a little. THAT tells me alot about any individual.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 10:40 am
c.i. , a lot of folks think Saddam is responsible for those deaths, and a couple million more, spread over the past 20 years. The means to prevent those deaths was fully at his hand, and he chose to do otherwise ... time after time after time. Had he not been stopped, he'd still be doing it.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 10:50 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Bush is responsible for the killing of over 10,000 innocent Iraqis. I don't see his conscience bothering him even a little. THAT tells me alot about any individual.

How many innocent Bosnians is Clinton "responsible" for killing, and why aren't you here wringing your hands over those deaths? Is it that you like Iraqis more than Bosnians, or is it simply that you don't really care about the deaths so much as you see it as one more thing to use to castigate Bush?

And as I've stated before, your overly-simplistic viewpoint assumes that the tragic death count from the war is higher than the death count would have been from just leaving the Iraqi people to the whims of Saddam and his henchmen. The statistical evidence shows that a civilian is FAR more likely to be killed by the totalitarian regime under which he lives than in a war.

Take a look at the article found here: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WSJ.ART.HTM

Here's a snippet that's on point:

Quote:
...both World Wars cost twenty-four million battle deaths. But from 1918 to 1953, the Soviet government executed, slaughtered, starved, beat or tortured to death, or otherwise killed 39,500,000 of its own people (my best estimate among figures ranging from a minimum of twenty million killed by Stalin to a total over the whole communist period of eighty-three million). For China under Mao Tse-tung, the communist government eliminated, as an average figure between estimates, 45,000,000 Chinese. The number killed for just these two nations is about 84,500,000 human beings, or a lethality of 252 percent more than both World Wars together. Yet, have the world community and intellectuals generally shown anything like the same horror, the same outrage, the same out pouring of anti-killing literature, over these Soviet and Chinese megakillings as has been directed at the much less deadly World Wars?


(And feel free to take a good look around that site. There's lots of very good information, and the focus of the studies is the pursuit of PEACE, so it isn't some right-ist attempt to justify war, it's simply a scholarly look at the data and suggestions for what to do to move towards a more peaceful planet.)

Consider this graph:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.FIG1.6.GIF

This means that to hold to your position, stripped bare and shown in a light of reality, you would have to prefer the likelihood that many more Iraqis would die by leaving them in Saddam's murderous hands in order to avoid having far, far fewer die liberating them from Saddam.

So, your position is not only disingenuous--as shown by your failure to complain of innocent deaths in Clinton's wars and bombing campaigns--but it also runs afoul of facts and logic; if you really care about minimizing civilian deaths around the world, you should be clamoring for the free nations of the world to rise up and strike down every totalitarian regime in existence. (But of course you aren't, you're just callously using the deaths of innocents as a political tool to attack the President.)
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 10:50 am
and a lot see it as a preventable Bush act accomplished by lying and deceiving Exclamation

therefore, a referendum
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 11:06 am
The WMD ploy was shown to be just that a ploy so now the pitch has become we freed the Iraqi's from the murderous hands of Saddam. How many Americans do you think would have supported the attack on Iraq if that had been the stated reason. When did the US become the conscience and the savior of the world? If that is the case think of how many other nations in this world where we can send our youth to get maimed and die.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 11:09 am
au1929 wrote:
When did the US become the conscience and the savior of the world? If that is the case think of how many other nations in this world where we can send our youth to get maimed and die.


When Bush was seated at the Right Hand of GOD and received each new spoken word directly Exclamation The body and souls of our youth are but fodder for the greater purpose.........
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 02:01 pm
au1929 wrote:
The WMD ploy was shown to be just that a ploy.

What happened to the WMD the UN inspectors cataloged after the Gulf War?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 03:02 pm
scrat
They were long gone and if Bush wasn't so macho and ready and willing to put someone else's life on the line he could have waited until the inspectors finished their job. If you remember the problem stemmed from Saddam's unwillingness to allow UN inspectors in country. That was resolved inspections were being conducted. Why did Bush invade? Was it because he wanted to be a big man? Typical act of a bully.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 03:08 pm
I didn't ask you where they are not, I ask you where they are. Since you claim the belief that they were in Iraq was a "ploy", I assume you believe you know where they are.

Otherwise, a reasonable, rational, logical man would recognize that it was reasonable, rational, and logical to assume that that which once was located there and which no evidence suggested had been either moved or destroyed, must logically still be there.

Now, the fact that it does not appear to be there does not mean it was unreasonable to think it was. (Which is why people like Gore, Kerry, Pelosi, Clinton, etc. all claimed to know that Saddam had weapons and posed a dire threat.)

Or were they in cahoots with Bush and his "ploy"?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 03:36 pm
Scrat
That is what the inspectors were supposed to determine. The truth is that macho man was intent on invading regardless of justification.
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