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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 09:43 pm
The only problem with that, nimh, is that it seems to be apples and oranges. You made observations that part of Kerry's appeal was just that he HADN'T been subjected to the same wringer as Dean. He looked fresher, the question was how would he look once he was put through the wringer.

I see this as applying, now, to Edwards as well. Kerry is the one who has experienced the wringer, Edwards has had pretty much a free pass.

I've long wanted to start a "Lies, Foibles etc." on Edwards, but haven't had the time. I think that's the only way to compare apples with apples, though.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 10:06 pm
Thats true.

Though I dont think one can fairly say that Kerry now is "the one who has experienced the wringer", yet, at all.

Just today I read a (NYT?) article that characterised these primaries as the gentlest since 1976, since Iowa in any case, no attack ads anymore. To the majority of voters you've been referring to, who rely on headlines and newsflashes only (rather than dig through everything I read), Kerry's still pretty much gotten a free pass, too.

But you're right, Edwards seems to thus far have gotten no bad press, at all. So we dont even know what his vulnerabilities would be.

Nevertheless, that doesnt actually touch on the main point I observed re: the exit poll above - namely, the differentiation of votes between different groups.

A lack of negative coverage would benefit a candidate across the board, in every segment, while Edwards and Kerry do remarkably differently among different groups. Yeh, diehards would resist its impact more than waverers, thats true. But the relatively limited negative coverage Kerry's been getting can hardly explain why he does almost twice as badly among Independents as among Democrats.

Plus, these findings reinforce the ones from before, which I posted on the other thread. Edwards does significantly better among those who consider jobs/employment the biggest issue. Among those who vote for someone "who cares about people like you". Same as in Missouri, Oklahoma, what was it. And not just was that, at least, before Kerry got any renewed media scrutiny - neither is there any reason why increased media scrutiny on Kerry would have a higher impact on these voters than on voters who care more about healthcare or Iraq, or experience. So there's a pattern here thats separate from the media scrutiny issue.

What did strike me, on the other hand, was that Kerry did relatively better among those with lower income and lower education. That was unexpected for me, since those groups had been Edwards' forte in Iowa, Virginia. He was the remaining blue-collar candidate, after all. Now its rather ironic - to see "Ivy League" Kerry pull the lower income brackets, and "son of a millworker" Edwards appeal to the suburbians.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 10:21 pm
Quote:
Bush Officials Offer Cautions on White House Jobs Forecast
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/18/politics/18JOBS.html?hp

This is another instance of the increasing dissention around Bush that we've seen growing for a few months now. Previously, such off-message statements were VERY rare.

We like this new trend.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 10:37 pm
Similar analyses of exit poll findings can be found at CBS News

Its interesting to see the different takes on the news in different media, in terms of headlines, btw ...

CNN: "'Narrow win' for Kerry"
MSNBC: "Kerry wins"
CBSNews: "Kerry Scores Narrow Wisconsin Win"
FoxNews: "Kerry's the Big Cheese"
NY Times: "Kerry Holds Off Push by Edwards in Wisconsin"
USA Today: "Kerry wins in Wisconsin"
Washington Post: "Kerry Edges Out Edwards in Wisconsin"
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:13 pm
blatham, I "love" this new trend. Wink
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 12:06 am
c.i. and Blatham
c.i. and Blatham, how is this for a trend scenario? Conservatives get so fed up with Bush's deficit spending, loss of jobs, etc. that they fear he can't be reelected. Rather than lose power, they start pressuring President Bush to announce that he won't seek a second term ala Lyndon Johnson. They start searching for someone to either challenge George W. Bush or be nominated as the Republican's presidential candidate in 2004.

Is this scenario a possibility? Could that candidate be John McCain? If not, whom would you suggest?

BBB
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 12:11 am
I would have voted for John McCain in 2000, but not in 2004. He's too closely aligned with GWBush for my taste.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:55 am
PDiddie wrote:

Turnout appears to be massive (bad news for timber again):


Well, lets see here ... what the turnout really was, statewide, not in just a metro area.

Quote:
WI Primary Votr Totals, By Candidate

Democrat

John Kerry 326,299
40%

John Edwards 282,581
34%

Howard Dean 150,180
18%

Dennis Kucinich 27,139
3%

Al Sharpton 14,434
2%

Wesley Clark 12,616
2%

Joe Lieberman 3,896
0%

Lyndon LaRouche Jr. 1,622
0%

Carol Moseley Braun 1,618
0%

Dick Gephardt 1,263
0%

Precincts Reporting: 99%

Libertarian

Michael Badnarik 1,486 44%

Gary Nolan 1,484
44%

Uninstructed 391
10%

Precincts Reporting 79%



Republican

George W. Bush 157,777 99%

Uninstructed 1,195
1%

Precincts Reporting 98%





Looks like 820,385 Democratic votes to me ... Even if you add in the 162,333 voters who declared in the Republican and the Libertarian Primaries, it comes up 982,718, for an overall turnout of a bit more than 24% of the estimated voting age population, well under the 40 and 50% breathless guesses by some excited pundits yesterday, and comparable to the 22% and 24.6% recorded for 2000 and 1996, respectively, when Wisconsin's April primary date was thought to be the reason for declining participation, as observed by Kevin Kennedy, Elections Board Executive Director, who had predicted the earlier date and the general excitement and energy of the Democratric contest would bring folks swarming to the polls in record numbers:
Quote:
Wisconsin's top election official said voter turnout in Wisconsin's new, earlier presidential primary could hit 40 percent, the highest for a presidential primary in the state in more than 20 years.

Elections Board Executive Director Kevin Kennedy said he expects about 1.6 million people to go to the polls Tuesday, driven by the national spotlight on the race for the Democratic presidential nomination and a host of thorny local issues, including a casino referendum in Dane County and a mayoral primary in Milwaukee.

"What drives voter turnout is when voters feel like their vote makes a difference," Kennedy said.

The last presidential primary in Wisconsin with a higher turnout was in 1980, when 46 percent of voters went to the polls, Kennedy said. On the ballot that year: Republican Ronald Reagan and Democrats Edward Kennedy and Jimmy Carter.

Wisconsin's old April primary discouraged voters for years, Kevin Kennedy said. Nomination races were wrapped up long before Wisconsin voters got to the polls. Statewide turnout in 2000 was 22 percent; turnout in 1996 was 24.6 percent, he said.




Not exactly an "astounding turnout", in fact not even average, if you look at the figures available at the Wisconsin Board of Elections. Another interesting observation, Edwards seems to have been the beneficiary of a large Republican crossover vote:
Quote:
... an unusually heavy Republican turnout and a late surge in support from independents helped Edwards to a second-place finish behind John Kerry.

In an open contest on a day with a non-partisan primary for mayor in Milwaukee and a referendum on casino gambling in Madison, one in ten Democratic primary voters described themselves as Republicans. Edwards won as many of their votes as did Kerry and Howard Dean combined. The Republican turnout was the biggest of any Democratic primary so far this year ...

There no doubt were some disaffected Republicans in that 10%, and there were some who crossed over just to cross up the opposition. How many of each ... well, no way to be certain, really. It is an open primary, after all, and there was really only one race to play. I know I was gonna go with Sharpton, just for giggles, but at the last minute, I figured I'd do what I could to keep Edwards on Kerry's tail. I imagine I wasn't alone in that thought.

Anywho ... Kerry notches another, but not exactly a blowout, Edwards gets legs, Dean pretty much gets told to take a hike, and the undercard remains on the bill, more or less just for the experience of being knee-deep in the hoopla a while longer. Still, if Kerry continues to just edge Edwards in the next few primaries, he'll have the delegates he needs to carry the nomination on the first ballot in Baltimore. Can Edwards pull a Seabiscuit? Will Edwards "Nice Guy" schtick hold up to Kerry's dedicated focus? I doubt it. But then, I've been wrong before. Still, if what appears to be nationwide below-par turnouts for the Democratic Primaries continues to be the case, that just might indicate a trend I'd like :wink:
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:11 am
nimh wrote:
Bill, where do you get your numbers ... <shakes head>


nimh, these are hardcore numbers; ie, the % of the population that would vote anything but Dem or anything but Rep. They aren't "hard" numbers because they are based on so little. They normally are in the range of about 20% and indicate exactly how polarizing, or if you will, how big a divider Bush is. The populace has never been so galvanized before!

I also believe that they are a direct result of the slash and burn Rightwing press that has developed over the last 10-12 years; ie, Fox, Coulter, Limgbaugh, O'Reilly, Horowitz, ect.

This is the way I see the landscape, my opinion, and I do not believe I am that far off. That is the reason it is the party that gets voter turnout will win.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:15 am
Dean is going to announce the end of his campaigning today.

I heard something about a letter that he is sending to the DNC to the effect that he will only support the nominee if they promise to rescind the tax cuts.

Anyone have anything on that?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:26 am
There is a lot of wiggle room there Brand X. All the candidates want to rescind at least a portion of the tax cuts - so there would be enough meat for both sides to chew on Smile
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:41 am
True dat.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:47 am
I think this is the reason the Democrat party is coalescing instep for the convention. It is now Kerry's responsibility to becould a uniter and bring all the factions together in a true coalition. If he could get Nader on board - then the only thing left is to get voter turnout.

I voted for John Edwards in the primary, can easily support Kerry or Dean for that matter. It is turning into a powerful party just in time. However, there is still 8 1/2 months to go............
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:55 am
timber wrote:
if Kerry continues to just edge Edwards in the next few primaries, he'll have the delegates he needs to carry the nomination on the first ballot in Baltimore.


Wrong 'B' city, Bird.

Some other issues in there, too, but I just don't have time to debunk them right now.

(At least there's no Photoshopped smears with nearly invisible disclaimers...)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:17 pm
Dean is out!
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:31 pm
A realistic horse race of a campaign can begin now that the fairytale is over.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:34 pm
The next eight months is a long, long, time. Anything can still happen.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 02:46 pm
Just saw a message on CNN that Edwards is ahead of Bush by 10 points.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 02:47 pm
Kerry leads Bush by 12 points.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 02:52 pm
1 month ago it was all Dean, one month from now it may be Edwards...it is far to early to tell and besides, the republican juggernaut hasn't even started rolling...
0 Replies
 
 

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