2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

ye110man wrote:

"With all respect, this is now down to a choice between Howard Dean and me." - Joe Lieberman

Has he been living in a spiderhole or something?

I think Lieberman meant that for himself it has now come down to a choice between himself and Dean. :wink:

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I think the infighting amongst the demo contenders are gonna do them in by next November. What a shame.

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And much akin to a group of sharks in a feeding frenzy, the Democratic candidates have begun attacking each other and chewing each others fins off.

I love the fact that Democrats are now running attack ads against their fellow candidates. It is just another example of the main problem that plagues the Democratic party:

UNITY

What they need to realize is that every ad they run that attacks one of their own is just another chink in their armour for we Republicans to exploit.

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Fedral - Well, let's not forget that it was George Herbert Walker Bush who during the primaries coined the term "Voodoo Economics" to refer to Ronald Reagan's "trickle-down economics". Such primary-season infighting is not something invented by the Democrats.

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Fedral, Heck, the repubs are getting a "free ride" for the next election. Power grab can get nasty, but I think this is the very first time I've ever witnessed this kind of attack within the same party, while leaving their opponent dancing in the streets. Life is full of surprises.

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Proly not invented by the demos, but sick politics none-the-less.

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I never said that Republicans were immune to these faults, just that the Dems tend to be much more fracticious than the Repubs.

I don't know how many of the attack ads that you have seen, but I never saw anything in the Republicans past that can compare to the viciousness displayed by the Dem vs Dem attack ads of this season.

I have never contended that the Republican party is perfect, but I would have objected to the tone of some of these Democratic ads if they had come from my own party.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Fedral, Heck, the repubs are getting a "free ride" for the next election. Power grab can get nasty, but I think this is the very first time I've ever witnessed this kind of attack within the same party, while leaving their opponent dancing in the streets. Life is full of surprises.

The incumbent always gets to sit on the sidelines and snigger at the fun. That's just the way it works.

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Fedral wrote:

I never said that Republicans were immune to these faults, just that the Dems tend to be much more fracticious than the Repubs.

I don't know how many of the attack ads that you have seen, but I never saw anything in the Republicans past that can compare to the viciousness displayed by the Dem vs Dem attack ads of this season.

I have never contended that the Republican party is perfect, but I would have objected to the tone of some of these Democratic ads if they had come from my own party.

You may be right, though you have to admit that your perception may be tinged by bias.

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I don't think you understand my meaning Scrat,

If the Republican party had run ads against Democrats the likes of which I have seen the Dems run against each other, I would be on the phone to my own partys headquarters urging that those ads be pulled because I found them too out of line.

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Fedral wrote:

I don't think you understand my meaning Scrat,

If the Republican party had run ads against Democrats the likes of which I have seen the Dems run against each other, I would be on the phone to my own partys headquarters urging that those ads be pulled because I found them too out of line.

I understood you, and simply suggested the possibility that your standard for taking offense is lower for something coming from Dems than it would be for something coming from Reps. I may be wrong about this. You also may not even realize your own bias. (Bias is like that.)

I have no doubt that you believe what you have written, I simply wanted to suggest that you may unwittingly be employing a double-standard. I suggest this because I have found it to be true in my own case from time to time, so please do not take offense. I am not accusing you of anything I have not done myself. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. Cool

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I have a question regarding this pre-primaries infighting business: Once the primaries are over and the opposing party has agreed on one candidate, how common is it for the incumbent party to quote attack ads from primary losers in their own attack ads against the primary winner? For example, if Dean is nominated, how likely would the Bush camp be to use Lieberman's "spider hole" snippet to convey the message, "See? Not even the Democrats themselves believe in their own candidate!" Does that kind of move work, or is there a strong sense among voters that before the primaries is before the primaries, after the primaries is after the primaries, and it's a foul to mix up quotes from the two periods?

Just curious

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Thomas,

I think there is some merit in your "before the primaries..." speculation, but believe that the question is subsumed by the dominant issues relating to the particulars of the contest between the two candidates who finally do emerge, in this case a sitting Republican President and the Democrat nominee (perhaps along with a stubborn, self-obsessed Ralph Nader, doing his thing).

If, in the contest between Bush and the Democrat nominee, there are some resonant themes left over from the primaries that are considered useful in the context of the final election, they will certainly be used. It is likely that many such themes, though perhaps efective in various primary fights, will be largely irrelevant in the later election. Dean may be a bit iof an exception to the general rule.

If Dean is the Democrat nominee, then I think we will indeed see a good deal of repitition of the early primary attacks on him. I believe that much of it will play better among the general voting population than among the various Democrat loyalists, looking for a new champion.

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Thomas wrote:

I have a question regarding this pre-primaries infighting business: Once the primaries are over and the opposing party has agreed on one candidate, how common is it for the incumbent party to quote attack ads from primary losers in their own attack ads against the primary winner?

It happens but typically the arguments would be purloined rather than the opposing candidate quoted.

Thomas wrote:

For example, if Dean is nominated, how likely would the Bush camp be to use Lieberman's "spider hole" snippet to convey the message, "See? Not even the Democrats themselves believe in their own candidate!"

There's a lot of 'kiss and make up' that occurs at the parties' conventions; that ameliorates most of the earlier jabs.

Thomas wrote:

Does that kind of move work, or is there a strong sense among voters that before the primaries is before the primaries, after the primaries is after the primaries, and it's a foul to mix up quotes from the two periods?

It's not out of bounds, but again rarely does it occur in that form, and I think it is because the (defeated) candidate can rebut easily by saying, "Well, Howard's position is still light years better than..."

They simply draft it as "new" argument (because someone else, even if that's a anonymous voice-over, is saying it).

Repetition seems to be more valuable in the attack than is quoting the source.

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Fascinating stuff:

Beyond Red and Blue
The New Map of American Politics

Painting America in just two colors makes US politics seem too black-and-white. In reality, the national electorate divides into 10 regions that cut across state borders. How they come together will determine the presidential election.

The 10 Regions of US Politics

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Boy, that is fascinating, nimh.

Thanks for digging that out. I need to go spend a little more time with it.

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heh, better watch out - i just "lost" one and a half hour straight on that! ;-)

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I watched a segment on CNN wherein it was forwarded that the media annointed Dean. Did they, or did they just follow the story? Should they have given equal coverage to the other Dem contenders? I remember a couple of months when you could see Dean's face plastered all over the big covers...

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.....and the winnah is..........

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Kerry was on Kudlow and Cramer and he said something that almost turned me into a Kerry supporter. When asked about how he felt about the Bush cut on dividends, he said that he was in favor of cutting it on the corporate side rather than the investor's side. I've been arguing that point ever since the plan to cut dividends was unveiled! It's a very unpopular stance. It essentially let's the corporations keep more of their money. With the current tax, basically the corporations bear some of the tax burden for the investors. Kerry said all this despite the fact that such a change in the tax law would mean a huge tax increase for himself.

With the negative stigma associated with big business, many politicans have been reluctant to support any policy that would help big business or at least any that would appear to favor big business over the working people. It's really sad because I believe that while supply side economics may not work for individuals it does work for corporations. I wish more politicans would push that.

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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

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