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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:23 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Seeing the world and actually absorbing what the world is all about are two different things.

Too true. I admit to haeving seen very little of the world, outside of most of Western and a large portion of Eastern Europe, Japan, Okinawa, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Libya, Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, S.Africa, Kenya, Somolia, Brazil, Argentina, Panama, Canada, Russia, the Ukraine, and Iceland. Haven't made it to Australia yet, but I'm still hoping. I bow to George's knowledge! Wink
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:47 pm
Nice list, but relatively very short. You've got me on Iraq and Lybia though.

Add Somalia too. Never been there either.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:49 pm
hobit, I've been to over 70 countries, but your list includes places I've yet to visit. Iraq? Wink
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 02:21 pm
Twice: 1977 for a boy scout jamboree, and 1991, at a refugee camp. Shocked On the other hand, unlike certain posters, I keep my eyes and ears open when abroad, and don't automatically assume that being an "American" makes me better than anyone else. I also haev a differrnt perspective from those born and raised in teh US. I didn't set foot here until 1978, and went to schools with and played with kids of many nationalities. My parents associated with calmost exclusively with "foreigners," and avoided the American ex-pat communities like the plague. This has rubbed off; when in the Army in Germany I spent as litle time with my fellow soldiers as possible, instead keeping company with Germans and Turks. Since I have always had an "outsider's" perspective, it has been painful to observe this sense of privilege most Americans wear as a shield.
One aspect of this is the absolute insistence of most Americans to remain monoglottal, despite the obvious hindrance both personally and societally this brings.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 02:27 pm
hobitbob wrote:
,,,and unlike certain posters, I keep my eyes and ears open when abroad, and don't automatically assume that being an "American" makes me better than anyone else.


How can you possibly claim to know this? A hallmark of ignorance is the assumption that one knows what others don't.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 02:49 pm
hobitbob wrote:
On the other hand, unlike certain posters, I keep my eyes and ears open when abroad, and don't automatically assume that being an "American" makes me better than anyone else.

I've been watching this thread for quite some time now. As you know, I strongly disagree with several contributors about the merits of America's foreign policy. But I haven't seen any who said he has travelled abroad, and who seems to assume that he, personally, is better by virtue of being an "American". I wonder whom you are talking about.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 02:51 pm
Thomas wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
On the other hand, unlike certain posters, I keep my eyes and ears open when abroad, and don't automatically assume that being an "American" makes me better than anyone else.

I've been watching this thread for quite some time now. As you know, I strongly disagree with several contributors about the merits of America's foreign policy. But I haven't seen any who said he has travelled abroad, and who seems to assume that he, personally, is better by virtue of being an "American". I wonder whom you are talking about.

Many of the soldiers I was with in Germany, acquaintances before and since,etc....
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:03 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Many of the soldiers I was with in Germany, acquaintances before and since,etc....

I understand. No one in particular in this thread then.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:06 pm
Perhaps two. Maybe three. One of who is no longer with us. Certain posters have expressed sentiments that "The US is better then the rest of the world, who cares what the rest of the world thinks, we are right regardless, if you aren't American, you have no business commenting oin our actions, etc..."
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:15 pm
Gosh, Hobit, could that be me? The juxtaposition of your comments seemed to leave no doubt.

I don't think you have accurately described either the content, the context or the meaning of my comments, though.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:31 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Perhaps two. Maybe three. One of who is no longer with us. Certain posters have expressed sentiments that "The US is better then the rest of the world, who cares what the rest of the world thinks, we are right regardless, if you aren't American, you have no business commenting oin our actions, etc..."


Pot-Kettle-Black, IMHO ... Insular Worldview is not confined to any particular perspective, nor is self-righteous sense of superiority. Lots of folks are given to such practice regardless of gender, proclivity, ideology, or theology. For many, it serves, to their discredit, as philosophy.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:44 pm
timberlandko wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Perhaps two. Maybe three. One of who is no longer with us. Certain posters have expressed sentiments that "The US is better then the rest of the world, who cares what the rest of the world thinks, we are right regardless, if you aren't American, you have no business commenting oin our actions, etc..."


Pot-Kettle-Black, IMHO ... Insular Worldview is not confined to any particular perspective, nor is self-righteous sense of superiority. Lots of folks are given to such practice regardless of gender, proclivity, ideology, or theology. For many, it serves, to their discredit, as philosophy.

I agree. Ironically, I frequently get tarred and feathered in German online forums for being naively pro-American -- for saying quite exactly the same things I say here. So intolerance and narrow-mindedness isn't a monopoly of any particular world view or nationality.

The only regard in which American ignorance and chauvinisms is worse than the others' is because America is a lot more powerful. That gives America's ignorants and chauvinists more leverage than, say, the French kind.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 03:54 pm
Thomas wrote:
Ironically, I frequently get tarred and feathered in German online forums for being naively pro-American -- for saying quite exactly the same things I say here.


Well, your views can't be said to naive, really :wink:
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 07:43 pm
America is the greatest country.
I hear and see that in print that a lot.

I never hear or read any comparisons though. If America is the greatest then there must be a comparison, right? There must be a list of qualifications and other countries to be compared. It would be real interesting to read a list. Of course, that may be difficult because I imagine that some qualifiers would be subjective opinions rather than facts. Still, a comparison chart to, say 10 other countries that may be in the area of possible contenders would be of interest.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 08:13 pm
Thomas wrote:
I agree. Ironically, I frequently get tarred and feathered in German online forums for being naively pro-American -- for saying quite exactly the same things I say here.


Yep - know that one. I assume I'm seen as a typical example of European peacenik anti-Americanism on this board - but back IRL, they view me as a bothersome nitpicker, who always insists on pointing out 9/11, the US perspective, the real enough threat of Islamist terrorism, blah blah, just when we would otherwise have been heartwarmingly united in internationalist indignation about that Bush fellow and his gang.

I guess this could mean two things:

- What may seem out left to people here may seem out right to people there. Not that its necessarily purely an ideological left-right thing, its also about topics, frames of reference, etc. We may talk about restoring "balance" on this board by inviting more conservatives (which I do think is a good idea), but we should also remember that to a European, even now the whole perspective of this board is already skewed all the way to US perspectives, which politically sometimes means to the right of what would even come up in the European political range. To US standards this may be a liberal board - but to world standards, its an extremely Amero-centric one, and centrist at best.

- I am simply an argumentative person and will get in trouble no matter who I discuss with.

Its probably a bit of both <grins>.

Thomas wrote:
The only regard in which American ignorance and chauvinisms is worse than the others' is because America is a lot more powerful. That gives America's ignorants and chauvinists more leverage than, say, the French kind.


Well, thats true - "high trees catch a lot of wind". And it may seem unfair to some Americans that they will be feared or hated for stuff that other governments do as a matter of course, but it's true - if you've got excessive power, you end up with excessive responsibility - and thats only logical, too.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 08:13 pm
pistoff, I think 100 percent would be based on subjective qualifiers.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 09:35 pm
Nimh,

I think you exaggerate the degree to which you are likely perceived here as an "example of European peacenick Anti-Americanism". I certainly have not had that impression, and I likely would meet your definition of an American conservative.

No surprise (to me at least) to hear that European views come from a very different perspective than those expressed here. We see the evidence of that every day in the statements and some of the actions of European governments.

I get the impression that you regard the European viewpoint as representative of "world standards". I doubt this is anymore true than would be the suggestion that American standards represent world standards. (Even American conservatives don't say that !)
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 09:35 pm
Duplicate post
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 10:01 pm
excuse me if I comment that, I'm either depressed, or a2k politics threads have grown raaather boooooooooooooring of late.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 10:05 pm
Get over here Lola! I am never boring.
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