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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:23 pm
Quote:
The most eniment and erudite explicator of the legal system in the United States....Judge Richard A. Posner, believes that ...

Here we go again! Rolling Eyes
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:24 pm
PDiddie wrote:
I don't always disagree with the Big Bird (and certainly don't give him enough credit when I don't).


Thanks. No problem whatsoever, though; if all any of us wanted was to bask in the accolades of like-thinkers, none of us would be here, now would we?


Anyone else see this?

[url=http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2003/11/16/20031116_153406_flash2.htm][b][u][i]Drudge[/i][/u][/b][/url] wrote:
[SEN. JOHN KERRY'S FUNDRAISERS TELLING HIM IT'S GETTING NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND ANYONE WILLING TO WRITE A CHECK TO HIS CAMPAIGN
Sun Nov 16 2003 10:09:36 ET

---

Gov. Howard Dean Won Service Employees International Union (SEIU) Endorsement By Taking Advice of SEIU President Andrew Stern

--- Stern Gave Same Advice To Each Candidate, Only Dean Took Him Up in Earnest, Stern Says

New York - Senator John Kerry's fund raisers are telling him it's getting next to impossible to find anyone willing to write a check to his campaign, TIME's Karen Tumulty reports in this week's issue (on newsstands Monday, Nov. 17). Last week the Senator fired campaign manager Jim Jordan, announced he's following Dean's lead in opting out of spending limits for his campaign and vowed "to get really real and focused." That declaration, of course, only raised the discomfiting question of what he's been doing until now.

How Dean Got the SEIU Endorsement: Over the past year, whenever one of the leading Democratic presidential candidates made his way to the downtown Washington office of Andrew Stern, head of the nation's largest union, he came away with two things: a bit of advice and the names of local officials across the country. "I'm the voice of 1.6 million members," the president of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) told those who sought his endorsement. "Go talk to them." Only one candidate, Stern says, took him up on it.

Howard Dean not only talked to SEIU members, he showed up on their picket line at Yale University, cheered their organizers at a San Francisco hospital and consulted the union's nurses in Iowa as he put together his proposal for solving the shortage in their profession. "Howard Dean didn't start on top," Stern says, "but he certainly ended up on top." If the onetime long shot looked like a front runner before last week, the political pundits were declaring him all but unstoppable after Wednesday's joint endorsement by Stern's union and the 1.4 million-member American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME).

Greatest Threat to Dean is Dean Himself: Dean has been running so fast that his vulnerabilities haven't caught up to him. "He's quick of lip, and quick of temper and stubborn," says Democratic activist Harold Ickes, a close adviser to Bill and Hillary Clinton. "In another time, the Confederate- flag story [Dean's comment that he's courting the voters who display them on their pickup trucks] would have taken him down the drain." It took Dean five days to apologize for the Confederate-flag gaffe, but that mini-brouhaha might be just a prologue to the scrutiny he will face on inconsistencies in his record on issues from affirmative action to trade. That's why many believe the greatest threat to Dean is Dean himself.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:27 pm
Posner also takes Rawls to task for Rawls's lack of sophistication regarding the Law.

Posner comments:

"Rawls' effort to place limits on political ( including judicial) discourse is unpragmatic. If a judge can reason only from the meager set of premises that all reasonable persons in the United States can be expected to share, the creative judge is an oxymoron. Holmes's influential conception of free speech as an open marketplace of ideas owes more to Mill and Darwin than to the values that all reasonable Americans could or can be brought to agree on."

Rawls, as a utopian thinker, makes me wonder just how he would define "all reasonable Americans".

In trying to read his turgid and confused prose, I have been unable to discover EXACTLY how he defines reasonable. I am very much afraid that his definition of reasonable is that a reasonable American agrees with the values of John Rawls.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:28 pm
I was just listening to NPR's description of the Iowa debate at which Hillary Clinton held up John Edwards' hand in a gesture of victory. I wonder if many believe this reflects badly on her and will further alienate many Dems from the DLC? What do you think, PDiddie? Actually, I'd be most curious to know what her standing is with voters at this point?
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:31 pm
hobitbob is certainly entitled to list his choice as to who the most eminent and erudite expositor of the legal system in the United States. If Hobibob is able to read Posner, he may find that he would agree with the statement. Otherwise, Hobibob could easily show that the statement is incorrect.

He did imply that it is. But, as usual, never gives evidence.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:34 pm
Hobitbob doesn't waste a lot of time worrying over the legal system. It doesn't interest him. Hobitbob can say, however, that unlike Italgato, his choice of citations is not limited to one author. Hobitbob has read more than one book in his short little life! Very Happy
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:36 pm
I have sent a contribution to Dean's campaign because I think that his selection as the Democratic Standard Bearer would be the best thing for our country.
Dean is a McGovern clone and would be destroyed in Nov. 2004.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:43 pm
Please send as much as you can, Ital.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:45 pm
Oy ... me no like.

Quote:
At the end of his speech, in a stentorian voice, Dean shouted the phrase “You have the power!” 14 times.

(http://www.msnbc.com/news/994031.asp?0sl=-10)
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:46 pm
Tartarin wrote:
George's curmudgeonly comments ........ Damn I'm tired of knee jerks.


CURMUDGEONLY !! (well perhaps).

What could possibly make you tired of knee jerk reactions Tart, given that yours are so moderate, restrained and mild?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:47 pm
Laughing
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:47 pm
I am very much afraid that "nimh" has not been keeping his eye on the facts and figures:

l. In November 2002, the GOP's vote margin in the Congressional Races was the largest since 1994. There were 35 Million votes cast for GOP candidates compared with 31 Million for the Democrats. The Republicans should have lost at least 20 House Seats and 2 Senate Seats by historical standards. THEY DIDNT.

2. Those who fell that Nov. 2002 was too far back in time to mirror today's political reality are invited to view the accession of THREE Republican Governors in the last month- Schwarzenegger in California( which race incidentially showed 61% voting for Republican candidates) and Republican Governors in Mississippi and Kentucky.

3. Furthermore, the Democratic hold on 49 Senators appears to be very tenuous.

At least four Senators from the South( which is now solid Repulican territory) are not running-

Edwards- the ambulance chaser--Hollings- the senile one--Graham--the invalid and Miller- the Democrat who has already endorsed George W. Bush for Nov. 2, 2004's race.

I am very much afraid that nimh does not keep up with the ALL IMPORTANT NUMBERS IN POLITICS.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:53 pm
But Nimh correctly corrected my percentages in the Louisiana election -- it was indeed 52/48. I get up early and may have heard earlier numbers....

Ital -- I think you're getting positively crippled by fear!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:54 pm
Hell, the only important numbers in politics right now are the TV ratings their appearances pull, which frankly, but typically for this point in a campaign, are dismal. The Activists are vocal, the Public, The Electorate-at-Large is as yet uninterested, and largely uniformed.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:00 pm
Tartarin wrote:
I was just listening to NPR's description of the Iowa debate at which Hillary Clinton held up John Edwards' hand in a gesture of victory. I wonder if many believe this reflects badly on her and will further alienate many Dems from the DLC? What do you think, PDiddie?


I simply don't know what to make of John Edwards, Tarty.

He has everything the Dems could want in a candidate: bright, qualified, experienced, telegenic, represents a not-too-small Southern state, could throw in a few millions of his own to his candidacy, etc.

So why hasn't he attracted more attention, followers, and contributions?

It could be that he's lost in the cacaphony of voices at this point, but I simply don't know if that's either accurate or fair. He's in the media frequently so I don't think he can complain about not getting his message out. And he went right after Dean when the flag comments were hot; to seemingly no benefit to himself.

Any way I count it in any state except South Carolina, he's fifth or sixth.

Tartarin wrote:
Actually, I'd be most curious to know what her standing is with voters at this point?


IMHO she stays visible in order to take all the flak that would be more effectively directed at others.

That's the Republicans for you, though; anal-retentive to the last drop. :wink:
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:05 pm
Tartarin wrote:
But Nimh correctly corrected my percentages in the Louisiana election -- it was indeed 52/48. I get up early and may have heard earlier numbers....
!



Get a better news source. As mentioned here, a bit less than 2 hours following the close of the polls, the widest spread was 54-46.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:07 pm
When I heard the description on NPR, I thought I was hearing a) applause for Hillary as celebrity, b) lack of interest in her otherwise. Then she steps forward at the end and favors one candidate. This isn't done lightly, I'm sure. Kerry is lost. Clark's his own man (possibly). Dean is the enemy (of the DLC). Gephardt is a cliff-hanger at best. She goes for Edwards, #6. Is that because Edwards is a) the least offensive and/or b) the latest choice of the DLC, or c) cute guy whose hand she'd like to hold...?? (I don't think she's a flakkie...)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:11 pm
Italgato wrote:
I am very much afraid that "nimh" has not been keeping his eye on the facts and figures:

I am very much afraid that nimh does not keep up with the ALL IMPORTANT NUMBERS IN POLITICS.


What post or point of mine are you argueing with, exactly, Italgato?

You begin and end your post with a derisory reference to me, but nothing in the rest of your post seems to actually contest anything i wrote here specifically ... if you think i made a big factual error, then please quote what i said and show me where its incorrect.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:19 pm
Edwards
He is a boring moderate. Rolling Eyes
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 05:27 pm
I like Edwards too, but I think pistoff has something there. In a quieter and more peaceful time, Edwards might shine rather more.
0 Replies
 
 

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