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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 09:57 am
Setanta wrote:
Keep the personal remarks to yourself, shithead . . .

Now, now... I tried to offer a light-hearted poke and you immediately reach for the heavy artillary. Tsk-tsk. If I'd known you were getting thin-skinned in your advancing age, I wouldn't have tried to get a smile out of you.

Grouch. Sad

But please, let me be clear to everyone here that I never actually intended to suggest that you were a hairball. If anyone thought I meant that seriously, please know that it is not--to my knowledge--true. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 10:01 am
Now that is truly charming of you . . . my response was offered in the same spirit and tone . . .
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 10:43 am
Scrat wrote:
Thomas - You are clearly a smart man who is well informed, but you have an annoying habit of stating the conclusions you draw from a series of events as the factual causes and effects.

The cheap shot at this point would be to contrast it with the objectivity of remarks you made yourself, such as

Quote:
This jackoff has the gall to make sweeping generalizations clearly crafted to suggest to the ignorant masses that Bush actually had a role in causing 9/11, and you're tickled to death. No surprise there, what with you being your local watch captain for the Bush hate squad.

But instead, I'll argue that my theory about how Bush works has a better record of predicting the bulk of his actions than your theory of how Bush works. I wasn't on this board before the war on Iraq, so let me take Paul Krugman (my new avatar) as my proxy.

Ever since the 2000 election campaign, Krugman has said that Bush's tax cuts make no sense in terms of their stated goals. In fact, he observed that whatever the policy problem was, the solution would always be tax cuts for the rich. You might call this theory "hateful", but you can't deny that it predicts very well that the same policy that was designed to fend off Steve Forbes in the primaries then served as a policy against excessive budget surpluses (remember these?), then served as a short term stimulus policy in response to September 11, and now serves as a guarantee of long term growth.

Same thing for Iraq. Krugman was severely attacked as a Bush hater after he predicted, shortly after September 11, that Bush would use the event to ram through his pre-existing agenda of attacking Iraq, never mind that there was no evidence for a Saddam -- Al Queda connection. But hateful though he might have been, he turned out to be right. There was no such connection, there was no immediate thread from WMDs, but Bush went to war anyway.

So my response to you is not that liberals don't hate Bush -- I, for one, do. But when we make the "hateful" assumption that Bush will not solve problems but use them to ram through a pre-existing agenda, it leads us to consistently correct predictions on the big issues Meanwhile the benefit of the doubt consistently leads to wrong predictions. So what are we supposed to do about it?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 10:57 am
Careful with the sticks, kids. I don't wanna have to go change into my uniform and break up this little love-fest. Perhaps a bit of judicious editing by the authors of a particular couple of posts might be in order, though I have no objection if those concerned are comfortable with showing off their lack of judgement and decorum.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:00 am
I will only offer the sage and mature observation that . . .



. . . he (she, it?) started it ! ! !
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:03 am
And I'll respond by observing that who started what when is of far less import than that any participate in the foolishness, whether by initiation or response..
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:04 am
spoilsport . . .
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:35 am
Ahhh, hell, Set ... I'm just that way. Don't wanna see folks havin too much fun; that's what "Moderation" is all about. I keep wet blankets handy (which reminds me of a story, but not for here-and-now, I suppose) Twisted Evil
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:39 am
No problem, Boss, i did enjoy the thought of chasing the squirrel for a while, barking in that shrill way of which only small dogs are capable . . .
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 01:42 pm
Set -- My dog, Boone, had a lovely deep gruff INFREQUENT male bark before he was neutered. Now he's a yapper. Really sad. Meanwhile Tailor the four-month-old puppy, female, has a deep, gruff bark. Quite a pair...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 01:48 pm
We have an array of yappers and woofers, but big Sam, the Boss Dog, has a most distinctive and authoritative single-syllable bark which damned near rattles windows when he figures something oughtta be called to my attention. I ignore the general cacaphony most of the time, responding only when Sam says "Hey, Dad ... come look at this!"
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 02:24 pm
Setanta wrote:
Now that is truly charming of you . . . my response was offered in the same spirit and tone . . .

Well, I hope you mean that hoss, 'cuz none of this is worth getting our panties in a wad over, though I did think your choice of words went a bit over the line. (In fact, in a previous life I was excommunicated for using similar language here.) :wink:
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 02:30 pm
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Thomas - You are clearly a smart man who is well informed, but you have an annoying habit of stating the conclusions you draw from a series of events as the factual causes and effects.

The cheap shot at this point would be to contrast it with the objectivity of remarks you made yourself, such as

Quote:
This jackoff has the gall to make sweeping generalizations clearly crafted to suggest to the ignorant masses that Bush actually had a role in causing 9/11, and you're tickled to death. No surprise there, what with you being your local watch captain for the Bush hate squad.

But instead, I'll argue that my theory about how Bush works has a better record of predicting the bulk of his actions than your theory of how Bush works. I wasn't on this board before the war on Iraq, so let me take Paul Krugman (my new avatar) as my proxy.

Well, thank God you didn't choose the cheap shot! :wink:

And I'm glad to see you acknowledge that you are sharing a theory and not a fact. (There is a difference, you know.) Though personally, I don't care how accurate you think your theories are, I'm still going to call them opinions, and jump when you pretend they are facts.

Quote:
Ever since the 2000 election campaign, Krugman has said that Bush's tax cuts make no sense in terms of their stated goals.

Problem is, like most of Krugman's writings he put his personal bias and desire first and then worked out an argument to support them. The available evidence suggests that Bush's tax cuts have worked and are working. Krugman was and remains absolutely wrong on this (and many other) point(s). Krugman is the worst kind of partisan hack, and I'm shocked that you find any value in his writing.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 02:41 pm
Paul Krugman has developed a deservedly strong reputation as a knowledgeable columnist who dares to say the emperor has no clothes--and backs up what he says. He's a university economist, for one thing, which puts him several levels higher than just about every other columnist, left or right.

For those NY Times readers who are bothered by Krugman, there's always Wm. Safire, still banging the drum in a steady beat for the Bush foreign policy as well as for his soul-mate Ariel Sharon...
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 02:46 pm
After he's banged the drum about himself, D'art. I've never seen a columnist who beats the drum fo himself even as much as he does for Sharon!
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 02:51 pm
I hadn't notice that about Safire, Tartarin, except in his tendency to write, "As my good friend Ariel Sharon said to me over the phone the other night..." I would consider that shameless name dropping, only it's worse--allowing himself to be used as Sharon's mouthpiece. And he boasts about it!

I don't think any other columnist would be allowed to get away with that.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 03:12 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Paul Krugman has developed a deservedly strong reputation as a knowledgeable columnist who dares to say the emperor has no clothes--and backs up what he says. He's a university economist, for one thing, which puts him several levels higher than just about every other columnist, left or right.

It would, if he had the least inclination to put the facts before his extreme liberal bias. I'll at least give him that he makes no pretense of being unbiased. But Krugman's CV ceased to matter when he ceased to write as an economist and chose to write as a liberal intent on pushing liberalism at all costs.

Of course, it's typical of you to argue that if I don't like a blind liberal bias I can always seek out a blind conservative one. NEWS FLASH: Some of us prefer our sources without bias when possible. Krugman is a hack. Anyone who can't see his bias shares it, and anyone who cites Krugman's claim that Bush's tax cuts won't work as anything other than proof that Krugman is an idiot, is an idiot.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 03:40 pm
Get over it, Scrat. You write like someone who has some special insight into Krugman, or someone who knows something about him the rest of us don't. Pushing liberalism at all costs? Heaven forfend! Only he doesn't.

Which columnists do you admire? Please share names of those who actually publish in newspapers that others may read, not on some obscure web site for True Believers only...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 11:54 pm
Buncha partisan crap goin' on here, IMHO. Krugman is as ridiculously agenda-ized on The Left as is Savage on The Right. Any who take either seriously are not to be taken seriously.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 09:31 am
D'art -- there's a very (self) destructive piece about Krugman by Cockburn in the 11/10 Nation, reminiscent of the anger Hitchens expressed before he blew up in everyone's face. It's the kind of writing badly on Cockburn (whom I usually like). He's engaging in pure infighting -- who's the smarter, more acerbic, closer-to-the-action columnist...! Makes one love Krugman all the more for staying above the fray.
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