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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 07:30 am
PDiddie, Clark fan! I think you're going to enjoy this: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/technology/circuits/11clar.html
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 07:40 am
That's interesting, Tarty; thanks.

Yeah, I've admired Wes for awhile and I hope he jumps in but I'm not on his bandwagon yet.

There's still five months before the first primary, so there's plenty of time for the field to be winnowed and for the cream will rise to the top, be that Dean, Clark, Kerry, or some other.

I finnd it revealing that the starboard salvos of **** are already being slung.

With the history of the last campaign and a track record as vile as Bush's, what else could we expect? Confused
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 07:58 am
craven said
Quote:
I wish politics had less personality in it. I would love for the hostility to be exclusively directed at issues.

One of the things I most lament about politics is that he who does not demonize loses.

It's sound politics to play dirty and that's a damn pity.

a bit further on, Italgao said
Quote:
sofia- The reaction to Dukakas among some of my friends was precisely this:

They felt that he was playing to the wine and cheese crowd, the liberal left wing professors, who say, there is never ever ever any need for violence or righteous anger. We must be for peace--even if our wives are raped.

That was how the mealy mouthed response was viewed by some of my friends.

It is a case of liberal Hubris.

They all want to be like Christ- they turn the other cheek,but none of them believe in Him.

How ironic.


The problem, as I observe it, is not so much a mis-focusing of attention from issue to personality - there are valid reasons to consider personality factors in judging candidates, if one can find some reliable means of gaining information about a candidate's personality.

But Craven is really talking more about the 'demonization' and 'playing dirty' habits and techniques of modern campaigns.

The curious element here seems not so much why strategists allow themselves this quiver of ugliness. They are, after all, getting paid the big bucks to win votes. And there are power and prestige perquisites, and access to cute little red, white, and blue cheerleader types. This seems all pretty predictable - the American Dream alive and crawling on it's slippery underside towards success.

The more curious element is how easily suckered the target audience has become, and then falls into the play and becomes a shill itself. Look, for example, at Italgato's post. There is nothing in that post which is 'true', in a logical or factual sense. Take this element..." left wing professors, who say, there is never ever ever any need for violence or righteous anger. We must be for peace--even if our wives are raped." Has Italgato actually heard even one professor say this? Of course, he hasn't. The claim is far closer to being absolutely false than it is to being correct.

Why he might speak such a claim seems just a matter of partisanship, which is not where the problem sits. But why he THINKS this is a worthy thought, even for himself, not to mention worthy of sharing with others in the community, is a problem.

How could someone fall prey to such sloppy thinking? Laziness, to some degree, certainly. A simplistic cartoon version of the world or some part of the world diminishes the necessity to actually look and read and think carefully - white hats and black hats cleanly defined and absolutely aligned in their respective categories.

Having company seems part of it too - "Me and my buddies, well gosh dang it, we ain't gonna let no commie fags run this fuckin world, nosiree." There's comfort in agreement, regardless whether what is agreed upon has any residence anywhere in the world of real things.

And a distaste for freedom - for the freedom of others, that is - sits squarely in such a noggin too. It is no coincidence that totalitarian states or totalitarian-leaning individuals almost universally pick out as a primary target the teachers and students in universities. Why? Ideas. The freedom learn, hold, and speak ideas which might, and often do, contradict the acceptable singular set of ideas upon which the totalitarian supposes the community ought to function under.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 08:41 am
I'm struck by the fact that change a word or a name here or there to fit the case, and the pasrtisan arguments of both factions are remarkably similar. That, to me, is truly lazy thinking.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 09:07 am
timber

A bit broad, that brush stroke of yours. Rather like saying that Orwell and Goebbels were at the same task.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 09:13 am
Their ends may have differed, quantitatively and qualitatively, blatham, but not so much their means. Fiction is fiction, whether speculative or perjorative, on the mark or off.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 07:29 pm
Timber

As you know, I find it emotionally traumatic to disagree with you. I can only thank god that my constitution even barely allows me to continue here.

I was, though I should have made it more clear, alluding to Orwell's famous essay "Politics and the English Language", and not to his more commonly known works - the 'fictive' works, as you would have it.

Partisanship, or at least the possession of some set of notions and values regarding how a community ought to be organized, is a component to any responsible and sophisticated member of that community. That's ok. I think it unfortunate that the US has really but two organized parties, which tends to polarize folks and to perhaps more easily foment cliches and simplicities of thought. For sure, the language of American politics reflects such a bi-polar opposition.

So to get past this dilemma, when we talk politics, we ought to not worry so much about party membership (though noting that it clearly can be for some that membership which dictates ideas - dogmatism, the curse of curses) as we should worry about how we talk/write.

That is, we shouldn't let cliches slip by, and for the reasons Orwell gives, they do the 'thinking' for the speaker, and they don't do it well. And we shouldn't let generalizations stand without attacking them for the false idiocies they are.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 08:53 pm
"...And a distaste for freedom - for the freedom of others, that is - sits squarely in such a noggin too. It is no coincidence that totalitarian states or totalitarian-leaning individuals almost universally pick out as a primary target the teachers and students in universities. Why? Ideas. The freedom learn, hold, and speak ideas which might, and often do, contradict the acceptable singular set of ideas upon which the totalitarian supposes the community ought to function under."

Amen, Brother Blatham.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 09:19 pm
I saw just the smallest part of the debate between the candidates. I must say, I was quite taken with Dean, and far more so than the others in that context. His Trent Lott/Martin Luther King joke was very quick and very witty indeed. I like this guy. Heck, even David Brooks said (on Lehrer) that he liked Dean. Said he was 'the real thing'.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 09:19 pm
Correction....I think it was Shields who made the 'real thing' line.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 09:20 pm
But Brooks nodded.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:15 pm
Speak on Brother Blatham!
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:28 pm
Blatham said this, thusly coining the phrase 'false idiocies'--

So to get past this dilemma, when we talk politics, we ought to not worry so much about party membership (though noting that it clearly can be for some that membership which dictates ideas - dogmatism, the curse of curses) as we should worry about how we talk/write.

That is, we shouldn't let cliches slip by, and for the reasons Orwell gives, they do the 'thinking' for the speaker, and they don't do it well. And we shouldn't let generalizations stand without attacking them for the false idiocies they are.
------------------

Well, the thread will be littered with Dem/lib false idiocies.
Blatham....pot
Italgato....kettle
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:31 pm
while i have often been labeled "idiot" i can't recall ever being labeled "false idiot"
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:33 pm
I'll take the pot, thank you.............
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:34 pm
and I'm down to seeds and stems again, too!
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:36 pm
sad story, dys, something can surely be done about this problem.............but the pot is still better than the kettle
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:45 pm
dys, You need a bee to help germinate. Wink
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:49 pm
...well, sometimes it is a fine kettle of fish, and the pot is full of false idiocies...

dys--
You are labelled too much. I can't keep up with all of them.

ci--
I don't think the bee has a prayer with stems and seeds...
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2003 10:55 pm
Both Blatham and Sofia indicate that Cliches are useless in discussion and Debate. I heartily agree and feel that assertions should be buttressed with documentation as is indicated in the guidelines.

Blatham appears to be concerned about my comment concerning left wing professors who would not become agitated if thier wives were about to be raped since they are so peace loving.

Mr. Blatham has a point.

I withdraw the statement.

However, I hope that Mr. Blatham is not hypocritical.

When he stated that President Bush was incompetent and under-educated on 9/9/2003 at 10:12, I challenged his statement.

I call Mr. Blatham's statement a "cheap cliche" and call on him to give evidence- especially with regard to President Bush's "lack of education".

Your turn, Mr. Blatham.
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