1
   

Our War is not against Terrorism

 
 
Radikal
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 09:05 pm
Point
"Thats why its all the more alarming that AQ-like or -related groups have found a fruitful base even there."

That is part of my point.

How many Muslims are there world wide?

What the US govt. does or does not do in the ME has impact not only in the ME.

Thus far US govt. policy is mainly a disaster regarding the ME, in my view.

Arrogance of power is not a succesful foreign policy!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 10:50 pm
Lehmann is right, the enemy isn't terrorism, but I don't believe it is Islam either. Not Islam as a whole or Islam in its most fundamentalist expression.

Clearly, it is not a nation. It would be vastly easier to defeat if it was.

We want to assign a name to it, because we've always been able to clearly identify our enemies, and a clearly identified enemy is easier to defeat than one that is ambiguous or ill defined.

Islam is simply a vehicle. Whether or not it is a more suitable vehicle than any of world's other great religions is open to debate, but
I think not. In the US, The Christian Identity promotes terrorism, but despite their name they are considered White Supremists rather than Violent Christian Fundamentalists. They're no less vile than their Islamic counterparts, simply less talented in their leadership and less ambitious in their tactics.

Neither of these groups are attempting to advance the tenets of a religion. Do they have a realistic hope for winning their "wars?" Unlikely, but that isn't their immediate goal.They are seeking to create chaos and destruction to an extent that it is feasible that they can rise to a level of power that their numbers and resources would never permit through direct confrontation.

In order for them to have any chance of rising to power within their homelands they know they must neutralize (not necessarily defeat) the United States, but first they want the assistance of the US in creating the conditions of chaos that will allow them to rise.

Perhaps they imagined that 9/11 would turn the US into Fortress America, isolated and disengaged from the rest of the world, but I doubt it. I think it's more likely that they expected the US to retaliate. In Aghanistan at least, and I'm sure they hoped, elsewhere. War breaks down the infrastructure of society. This enemy could never have hoped to create, on their own, the sort of fertile ground Iraq has become. Imagine what would happen if we were to pull out now. Rather than the beacon of Middle Eastern democracy contemplated by neo-con plans, it would eventually become the first principality in the modern Caliphate.

Among their numbers are megalomaniacs, violent sociopaths, simple brutes, easily manipulated fools, and twisted nihilists.

That they exist and have been at all successful is due to a complex confluence of conditions and motivations.

They have been and are being used by Nations which themselves don't have the power to prevail in direct conflict, or who seek to deflect attention elsewhere: Syria, Iran, Iraq and saudi Arabia to name but a few.

They are using the resentment and despondency of an Arab generation tantalized by the material wealth and freedom of the West, but denied any hope of achieving it by their own totalitarian governments.

They wield power far in excess of what would ever before have been expected of their numbers, by virtue of the magnifying capabilities of technology, and the psychologically devastating effects of their tactics. While any number of people killed by terrorist acts is disturbing, the impact of these killings is calculated in far broader terms than human lives.

While the ultimate goal of the "leaders" of this widespread group may be to establish a "civilization" of their own making, in order to achieve this goal they must now be the agents of chaos and barbarism.

It most certainly is not a war of nations, and I don't believe it is a war of religions or cultures either. It is a war between order and chaos. This doesn't place either order or chaos squarely in the camps of good or evil, although one can make a pretty good argument that such a dichotomy is at least approached. However, our society is inextricably connected to what is now considered Order. So irrespective of how anyone might judge the quality of Order, our society doesn't exist without it.

While our actions in attempting to defeat this enemy may, in the short term, aide them in their strategy, and if unsuccessful will virtually ensure the achievement of their goal, I don't see that we have a choice but to continue our efforts.

They can't be negotiated with unless we are willing to give them the Middle East and its oil reserves. These are not reformers who are seeking freedom and prosperity for their fellow Arabs and Muslims. They are not defenders of the faith who are seeking to protect the integrity of their religion.

In one sense, it might be strategically sound to give them the Middle East. Once they become a nation they lose much of their power and become more vulnerable. Of course this would simply be a prelude to a more conventional war. Ultimately they must be defeated.

While we are taking them on as directly as possible, we also have to address the confluence of conditions and motivations that have allowed them to rise. To this end, establishing a bastion of Order within their midst is essential. Whether or not invading Iraq was the best way to do it can be argued, but in the end we can't leave Chaos behind when we defeat them. If we do, they'll simply rise again.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 03:44 am
good thoughtful post Finn

There is a lot of stuff going on that certainly I don't understand, and probably few people have a real handle on it.

But when you state

They can't be negotiated with unless we are willing to give them the Middle East and its oil reserves.


You get near the heart of the matter. This statement implies we own or at least have control over the middle east and its oil at the moment. Few would contest this. Iraq has the second largest proven oil reserves in the world. Moreover the western Iraqi desert holds the promise of lots more. The whole thing is very complicated, but at one level its pretty simple. American/Western imperialism. Western dependency on fossil fuels. Peak oil. Arab resentment.
0 Replies
 
Grand Duke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 03:55 am
Perhaps if the West could be persuaded to wean itself off oil and onto renewable fuel sources where possible, there would be fewer dictators like Saddam, and fewer wars like Iraq?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 04:26 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Lehmann is right, the enemy isn't terrorism, but I don't believe it is Islam either. Not Islam as a whole or Islam in its most fundamentalist expression.

Clearly, it is not a nation. It would be vastly easier to defeat if it was.

We want to assign a name to it, because we've always been able to clearly identify our enemies, and a clearly identified enemy is easier to defeat than one that is ambiguous or ill defined.

Islam is simply a vehicle. Whether or not it is a more suitable vehicle than any of world's other great religions is open to debate, but
I think not. In the US, The Christian Identity promotes terrorism, but despite their name they are considered White Supremists rather than Violent Christian Fundamentalists. They're no less vile than their Islamic counterparts, simply less talented in their leadership and less ambitious in their tactics.

Neither of these groups are attempting to advance the tenets of a religion. Do they have a realistic hope for winning their "wars?" Unlikely, but that isn't their immediate goal.They are seeking to create chaos and destruction to an extent that it is feasible that they can rise to a level of power that their numbers and resources would never permit through direct confrontation.

In order for them to have any chance of rising to power within their homelands they know they must neutralize (not necessarily defeat) the United States, but first they want the assistance of the US in creating the conditions of chaos that will allow them to rise.

Perhaps they imagined that 9/11 would turn the US into Fortress America, isolated and disengaged from the rest of the world, but I doubt it. I think it's more likely that they expected the US to retaliate. In Aghanistan at least, and I'm sure they hoped, elsewhere. War breaks down the infrastructure of society. This enemy could never have hoped to create, on their own, the sort of fertile ground Iraq has become. Imagine what would happen if we were to pull out now. Rather than the beacon of Middle Eastern democracy contemplated by neo-con plans, it would eventually become the first principality in the modern Caliphate.

Among their numbers are megalomaniacs, violent sociopaths, simple brutes, easily manipulated fools, and twisted nihilists.

That they exist and have been at all successful is due to a complex confluence of conditions and motivations.

They have been and are being used by Nations which themselves don't have the power to prevail in direct conflict, or who seek to deflect attention elsewhere: Syria, Iran, Iraq and saudi Arabia to name but a few.

They are using the resentment and despondency of an Arab generation tantalized by the material wealth and freedom of the West, but denied any hope of achieving it by their own totalitarian governments.

They wield power far in excess of what would ever before have been expected of their numbers, by virtue of the magnifying capabilities of technology, and the psychologically devastating effects of their tactics. While any number of people killed by terrorist acts is disturbing, the impact of these killings is calculated in far broader terms than human lives.

While the ultimate goal of the "leaders" of this widespread group may be to establish a "civilization" of their own making, in order to achieve this goal they must now be the agents of chaos and barbarism.

It most certainly is not a war of nations, and I don't believe it is a war of religions or cultures either. It is a war between order and chaos.


Good, good, good. All the way up to here, I actually fully agree with you on every single point you make - and in fact think they represent some of the most salient observations made here yet.

Which is always a gratifying experience to have when reading a post from someone you ususally diametrically disagree with!

("diametrically disagree with"? thats not english, but never mind)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 04:30 am
diametrically oppose perhaps?

or you could agree to diagonally disagree :wink:
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 04:51 am
Quote:
Perhaps if the West could be persuaded to wean itself off oil and onto renewable fuel sources where possible, there would be fewer dictators like Saddam, and fewer wars like Iraq?


Bingo!

And how in a "democratic" country does a political party get elected to government with the slogan

"Vote for us, we will drastically reduce your standard of living overnight, but your great grand children might thank you".

We are all hydrocarbon junkies. We're hooked, good and proper, and no one is going to vote for a dose of cold turkey.
0 Replies
 
Grand Duke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 05:37 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
And how in a "democratic" country does a political party get elected to government with the slogan

"Vote for us, we will drastically reduce your standard of living overnight, but your great grand children might thank you".

We are all hydrocarbon junkies. We're hooked, good and proper, and no one is going to vote for a dose of cold turkey.


Which country are you refering to, Steve? Britain?

Perhaps the methadone method of weaning would be less painful. If, for example, we switched to paper bags or reuseable fabric bags in supermarkets, and went back to glass bottles instead of plastic (like the 'olden days'), there would be less demand for oil for plastic manufacturing. And paper & glass are recycleable. Prices may go up slightly, but I don't care, if it 'makes a difference'.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 06:05 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
But when you state

They can't be negotiated with unless we are willing to give them the Middle East and its oil reserves.

You get near the heart of the matter. This statement implies we own or at least have control over the middle east and its oil at the moment. Few would contest this. Iraq has the second largest proven oil reserves in the world. Moreover the western Iraqi desert holds the promise of lots more. The whole thing is very complicated, but at one level its pretty simple. American/Western imperialism. Western dependency on fossil fuels. Peak oil. Arab resentment.


By "we" I mean those who are willing to fight for the maintenance of Order. Unfortunately, in most cases this does mean America, but there are some other clear sighted and courageous nations willing to join in.

If America was willing to allow this enemy to have their way with the Middle East, this doesn't necessarily mean they would. Europe might step in as, ultimately, might Russia or even China (involvement by the latter two is unlikely, although it would be in their long term strategic interests not to allow an Islamic empire to rise).

You are mistaken when you reduce the conflict down to Western Imperialism. Western imperialism doesn't exist, unless you want to redefine "imperialism." It is Western status quo, not territorial expansion that is being sought. At this juncture in history, the expansion of Western values may be necessary to preserve the status quo, but if the Middle East were a stable region of relatively peaceful and democratic nations, we would not see Western troops engaged in battles with any of the locals.

To the extent that imperialism enters the picture, it is the imperialistic designs of the enemy. For example, Saddam was the absolute ruler of Iraq. His will meant life and death in his country and yet he could not be content with having such incredible power over more people than he could physically count in a lifetime. Whatever you might think of the interests and motivations behind those nations that have confronted his regime, do you really think there would be Coalition forces in Iraq if he had not clearly exhibited a desire to extend his power outside of the borders of Iraq? Whether there are now WMDs in Iraq, we know he had them. Do you truly believe that he was stockpiling them for defensive purposes?

The West has tolerated the Saudi Royal Family for years because it has been perceived to be an ally in the maintenance of the status quo. The irony is that in order to maintain their own power, they have fed the forces of chaos so as to deflect attention from themselves. It will be a grave mistake if the West doesn't concretely deal with the fact which it recognizes: The Saudis who play such a large role in maintaining the status quo are supporting the means to destroy it. The Saudi's game of playing both ends against the middle can't be allowed to continue.

Oil is merely a factor not an underlying cause. If it wasn't oil it would be something else. All oil does is center the conflict in the Middle East.

If American became self-sufficient for its energy needs tomorrow, the conflicts in the Middle East would continue. We wouldn't care as much, but our allies would, and we have seen, over and over again, that what our allies care about, we care about: Serbia for example. Despite the occasional squabbles within the family, America is squarely within The West, and short of a dramatic reversal of foreign policy and a lurching towards isolationism, we are going to act to protect The West.

Thanks to technology and an increasingly globalized world, terrorism has become an extremely powerful tactic. Whether or not it can, ultimately, prove to be a successful one remains to be see, but right now it's the shiniest marble in the box and attracts the attention of would be conquerers. Effective counter-tactics will also arise from technology (although they may, at times, be resented by the citizenry), but the only way there is any hope of a lasting end to violent conflict is the spread of Order. It need not be a hegemony of Western Culture, but it does have to be based on what are, rightly or wrongly, called Western Values: liberalism, democracy and free trade. If it has an African or Chinese flavor vs a European one, it will work just fine.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 07:05 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
At this juncture in history, the expansion of Western values may be necessary to preserve the status quo, but if the Middle East were a stable region of relatively peaceful and democratic nations, we would not see Western troops engaged in battles with any of the locals.


I think we both subscribe to the paradigm that viewing the world in terms of civilizations - in this case Western and Islamic - is the most accurate model in the post-cold war world. We also both agree, I think, that America is actively promoting Western values across the globe, especially in the Middle East.

What I don't understand is when you say "the spread of Western values may be neccessary to preserve the status quo." It seems to me that American universalism is one of the primary motivations of the fundamentalist movement, and anti-American resentment in general.

If we are to "mow the grass from under" the terrorists, as Nimh suggested, we are going to have to put an end to American universalism, because as long as Arabs believe Western nations are pervading and corrupting their culture they will react the way societies have always reacted in the face of such a threat - by reverting to fundamentalism.
0 Replies
 
Radikal
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 08:28 pm
!
"promoting Western values".

Yes, the systematic abuse, rape, torture and beatings of "detainees" has done much to promote Western values. The whole world is quite impressed!

The "Western values" of greed and domination of brutal Capitalism is what most of the world knows about. Maybe a lot of people don't want the decadence of the West, as well.

I sure don't ascribe to the fundie side of Islam or Christianity because in my view both pervert the very religion they espouse.

Having read Osama's letter to the US has helped in grasping the view of the extreme side of Isam. It seems that many Muslims are not overjoyed with his extreme views either but given to choice over that to US Imperialism they chose Osama's msg.

The West should think about the struggle that is afoot and re-think the War On Terror strategy because it aint working.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 12:11 am
IronZionLion wrote:
I think we both subscribe to the paradigm that viewing the world in terms of civilizations - in this case Western and Islamic - is the most accurate model in the post-cold war world. We also both agree, I think, that America is actively promoting Western values across the globe, especially in the Middle East.

What I don't understand is when you say "the spread of Western values may be neccessary to preserve the status quo." It seems to me that American universalism is one of the primary motivations of the fundamentalist movement, and anti-American resentment in general.

If we are to "mow the grass from under" the terrorists, as Nimh suggested, we are going to have to put an end to American universalism, because as long as Arabs believe Western nations are pervading and corrupting their culture they will react the way societies have always reacted in the face of such a threat - by reverting to fundamentalism.


I tend to view the world in terms of Western Civilization and the non-Western world. I know this must sound incredibly chauvinistic, but allow me to explain.

It might help to begin by explaining that when I speak of the values of Western Civilization I am not refering to Christian/Judeo moral values (although they have helped shape Western values). I am not refering to American cultural mores (although they are the product of Western values, and tend to be at the forefront of the current advance of Western Civilization). I am refering to what might as easily be refered to as the values of Modernity: Liberalism, Secularism, Captitalism, Rationalism and Democracy.

Of the six continents on Earth upon which human societies thrive, four (North and South America, Europe, and Australia) are, unquestionably, the homes of Western Civilization. Sure, there are indigenous peoples living on each of these continents who attempt or are able to maintain a culture that is apart from Western Civilization, but they are a negligable fraction of the whole and exert little to no meaningful influence over the societies that surround them. Irrespective of latitude and longitude, these four contintents are "in" the West.

The remaining two, Asia and Africa, contain what is little more than the remnants of non-Western civilizations. Wherever these non-Western civilizations are most clearly manifested, society tends to be technologically backwards, and economically distressed, and wherever society is most advanced in terms of prosperity, Western values have taken hold.

I suggest that it it is difficult to argue that there is any thriving civilization on earth other than Western Civilization.

The pace of development within sub-Saharan Africa nations is moving in direct proportion with the pace of their assimiliation into Western Civilization.

In Asia, development has moved at much quicker pace because many of its nations have been willing and able to embrace Western values more quickly.
In some places, like Singapore, a sort of stasis has been achieved, but at best they are hybrids, and not manifestations of a distinct Eastern Civilization.

Japan has flourished with the adoption of Western values, and made a valient attempt of preserving its culture heritage. Each year, however, that heritage fades a bit more and Western culture intrudes further.

China was able to preserve a very distinct and independent cultural identity by retreating within its shell and actively seeking to purge all traces of Western influence. In so doing it also preserved it's status as a Third World citizen. What is now propelling China forward into an increasing potential for world dominance, is not an adherence to the principles of an Eastern civilization, but the adoption of the principles of Western civilization, and I would argue that this potential will never be realized unless and until China is much further Westernized.

In the Middle East we find what the ruins of a once great Arab civilization, and a somewhat desperate attempt to assuage a collective sense of humiliation and defeat by strict preservation of cultural mores.

There is Western Civilization and there is the non-Western world. This is not, necessarily, a value judgment, however it would be hard to argue against the contention that Western values have been more successful than any others.

America is promoting Western values across the globe, but not as well as it could or should.

I'm not sure what you mean by "American universalism." While American values are, perhaps, the most adherent to Western values, they are not one and the same.

Western values are not being imposed upon the rest of the world, they are being adopted by the rest of the world. Even what some might consider the cultural vices of the West are not being imposed on the rest of the world.

For discussion purposes, let's assume that the effort to convert Iraq into a prosperous liberal democracy is successful. Even if the Western values that would have taken root in Iraq cannot be then exported to its neighboring countries (somthing I think would happen), Iraq and it's people would pose little threat, if any, to the West. True democracies seldom, if ever, go to war with one another.

The answer is not to pull back from these countries it is to further engage them. Perhaps in a way that is seen as less exploitative than in the past, but not treating them as vestal virgins that we dare not bespoil with our vile culture.

Fundamentalism is not, in and of itself, a threat to anyone, and the enemy who threaten us are fundamentalists in name only. They are fundamentalist muslims in the way that the members of Christian Identity are fundamentalist christians, and that is to say they they are not adherents to the principles of either religion.

I think it is crucial to recognize that while the enemy that threatens us may exploit concerns over the loss of cultural identity, they are not acting as champions of their culture, just as they not acting as champions of their people.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 08:23 am
Amazingly well stated Finn, I applaud you.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 10:14 am
Finn

A very articulate response to ILZ as well as a persuasive explanation of your viewpoint however your concluding sentence really caught my attention as probably the most deceptively understated warning imaginable. I was forced to read it 3 times before I caught it's full implication.

Beautiful writing-----thanks----and I also, aplaud you.

I repost that last sentence:

I think it is crucial to recognize that while the enemy that threatens us may exploit concerns over the loss of cultural identity, they are not acting as champions of their culture, just as they not acting as champions of their people
0 Replies
 
Radikal
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 04:54 pm
!
Hegemony or Survival
America's Quest for Global Dominance

By Noam Chomsky


Excerpt

Chapter I

Quote:
Priorities and Prospects

A few years ago, one of the great figures of contemporary biology, Ernst Mayr, published some reflections on the likelihood of success in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. He considered the prospects very low. His reasoning had to do with the adaptive value of what we call "higher intelligence," meaning the particular human form of intellectual organization. Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which "achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization." It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago. It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants.

Mayr speculated that the human form of intellectual organization may not be favored by selection. The history of life on Earth, he wrote, refutes the claim that "it is better to be smart than to be stupid," at least judging by biological success: beetles and bacteria, for example, are vastly more successful than humans in terms of survival. He also made the rather somber observation that "the average life expectancy of a species is about 100,000 years."

We are entering a period of human history that may provide an answer to the question of whether it is better to be smart than stupid. The most hopeful prospect is that the question will not be answered: if it receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a kind of "biological error," using their allotted 100,000 years to destroy themselves and, in the process, much else.

The species has surely developed the capacity to do just that, and a hypothetical extraterrestrial observer might well conclude that humans have demonstrated that capacity throughout their history, dramatically in the past few hundred years, with an assault on the environment that sustains life, on the diversity of more complex organisms, and with cold and calculated savagery, on each other as well.

Two Superpowers

The year 2003 opened with many indications that concerns about human survival are all too realistic. To mention just a few examples, in the early fall of 2002 it was learned that a possibly terminal nuclear war was barely avoided forty years earlier. Immediately after this startling discovery, the Bush administration blocked UN efforts to ban the militarization of space, a serious threat to survival. The administration also terminated international negotiations to prevent biological warfare and moved to ensure the inevitability of an attack on Iraq, despite popular opposition that was without historical precedent.

Aid organizations with extensive experience in Iraq and studies by respected medical organizations warned that the planned invasion might precipitate a humanitarian catastrophe. The warnings were ignored by Washington and evoked little media interest. A high-level US task force concluded that attacks with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) within the United States are "likely," and would become more so in the event of war with Iraq. Numerous specialists and intelligence agencies issued similar warnings, adding that Washington's belligerence, not only with regard to Iraq, was increasing the long-term threat of international terrorism and proliferation of WMD. These warnings too were dismissed.

In September 2002 the Bush administration announced its National Security Strategy, which declared the right to resort to force to eliminate any perceived challenge to US global hegemony, which is to be permanent. The new grand strategy aroused deep concern worldwide, even within the foreign policy elite at home. Also in September, a propaganda campaign was launched to depict Saddam Hussein as an imminent threat to the United States and to insinuate that he was responsible for the 9-11 atrocities and was planning others. The campaign, timed to the onset of the midterm congressional elections, was highly successful in shifting attitudes. It soon drove American public opinion off the global spectrum and helped the administration achieve electoral aims and establish Iraq as a proper test case for the newly announced doctrine of resort to force at will.

President Bush and his associates also persisted in undermining international efforts to reduce threats to the environment that are recognized to be severe, with pretexts that barely concealed their devotion to narrow sectors of private power. The administration's Climate Change Science Program (CCSP), wrote Science magazine editor Donald Kennedy, is a travesty that "included no recommendations for emission limitation or other forms of mitigation," contenting itself with "voluntary reduction targets, which, even if met, would allow US emission rates to continue to grow at around 14% per decade." The CCSP did not even consider the likelihood, suggested by "a growing body of evidence," that the short-term warming changes it ignores "will trigger an abrupt nonlinear process," producing dramatic temperature changes that could carry extreme risks for the United States, Europe, and other temperate zones. The Bush administration's "contemptuous pass on multilateral engagement with the global warming problem," Kennedy continued, is the "stance that began the long continuing process of eroding its friendships in Europe," leading to "smoldering resentment."

By October 2002 it was becoming hard to ignore the fact that the world was "more concerned about the unbridled use of American power than . . . about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein," and "as intent on limiting the giant's power as . . . in taking away the despot's weapons. " World concerns mounted in the months that followed, as the giant made clear its intent to attack Iraq even if the UN inspections it reluctantly tolerated failed to unearth weapons that would provide a pretext. By December, support for Washington's war plans scarcely reached 10 percent almost anywhere outside the US, according to international polls. Two months later, after enormous worldwide protests, the press reported that "there may still be two superpowers on the planet: the United States and world public opinion" ("the United States" here meaning state power, not the public or even elite opinion).

By early 2003, studies revealed that fear of the United States had reached remarkable heights throughout the world, along with distrust of the political leadership. Dismissal of elementary human rights and needs was matched by a display of contempt for democracy for which no parallel comes easily to mind, accompanied by professions of sincere dedication to human rights and democracy. The unfolding events should be deeply disturbing to those who have concerns about the world they are leaving to their grandchildren.

Though Bush planners are at an extreme end of the traditional US policy spectrum, their programs and doctrines have many pre- cursors, both in US history and among earlier aspirants to global power. More ominously, their decisions may not be irrational within the framework of prevailing ideology and the institutions that embody it. There is ample historical precedent for the willingness of leaders to threaten or resort to violence in the face of significant risk of catastrophe. But the stakes are far higher today. The choice between hegemony and survival has rarely, if ever, been so starkly posed.

Let us try to unravel some of the many strands that enter into this complex tapestry, focusing attention on the world power that proclaims global hegemony. Its actions and guiding doctrines must be a primary concern for everyone on the planet, particularly, of course, for Americans. Many enjoy unusual advantages and freedom, hence the ability to shape the future, and should face with care the responsibilities that are the immediate corollary of such privilege.

Enemy Territory

Those who want to face their responsibilities with a genuine commitment to democracy and freedom -- even to decent survival -- should recognize the barriers that stand in the way. In violent states these are not concealed. In more democratic societies barriers are more subtle. While methods differ sharply from more brutal to more free societies, the goals are in many ways similar: to ensure that the "great beast," as Alexander Hamilton called the people, does not stray from its proper confines.

Controlling the general population has always been a dominant concern of power and privilege, particularly since the first modern democratic revolution in seventeenth-century England. The self-described "men of best quality" were appalled as a "giddy multitude of beasts in men's shapes" rejected the basic framework of the civil conflict raging in England between king and Parliament, and called for government" by countrymen like ourselves, that know our wants," not by "knights and gentlemen that make us laws, that are chosen for fear and do but oppress us, and do not know the people's sores." The men of best quality recognized that if the people are so "depraved and corrupt" as to "confer places of power and trust upon wicked and undeserving men, they forfeit their power in this behalf unto those that are good, though but a few." Almost three centuries later, Wilsonian idealism, as it is standardly termed, adopted a rather similar stance. Abroad, it is Washington's responsibility to ensure that government is in the hands of "the good, though but a few." At home, it is necessary to safeguard a system of elite decision-making and public ratification -- "polyarchy," in the terminology of political science -- not democracy.

Copyright © 2003 Aviva Chomsky, Diane Chomsky, and Harry Chomsky
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 05:53 pm
radikal

This is a forum for discussion, not an electronic bulletin board upon which acolytes tack up their revered pedagogue's latest pamphlet.

What does this passage have to do with this topic, and what is your take on it?

Otherwise, a link to Chomsky's article serves as well as tacking up the text and takes up less space.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 11:15 pm
To Adrian I would say that I agree that not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists. However, it isn't blondes who bombed our marines, who bombed the Cole, who highjacked a passenger ship and tossed a man in a wheelchair overboard or who bombed the World Trade Center or who highjacked four airliners full of passengers and flew them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon killing thousands of people, etc. etc. etc.

Now if it had been blondes doing these things, would I suggest all blondes be watched closely? You better believe it.

(P.S. It wasn't Italians or Germans or Russians or Nuns or even Christians doing these things either. It was radical militant fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 10:52 am
Foxfyre wrote:
To Adrian I would say that I agree that not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists. However, it isn't blondes who bombed our marines, who bombed the Cole, who highjacked a passenger ship and tossed a man in a wheelchair overboard or who bombed the World Trade Center or who highjacked four airliners full of passengers and flew them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon killing thousands of people, etc. etc. etc.

Now if it had been blondes doing these things, would I suggest all blondes be watched closely? You better believe it.

(P.S. It wasn't Italians or Germans or Russians or Nuns or even Christians doing these things either. It was radical militant fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.)


It goes without saying that all Muslims are not terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims, but this has very little, if anything, to do with efforts to protect ourselves from future terrorist attacks.

It is sheer lunacy to ignore the fact that the terrorists who are currently dedicated to our destruction are Muslims and that most of them are from nations identified as being Islamic (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen etc).

If Middle Eastern Muslim terrorists slip through our defenses because of misguided restrictions imposed by politically correct ideology, it will be an insanely tragic event.

It would be foolish, though, for us to underestimate the terrorists. Surely, since 2001, they have been earnestly searching for operatives who are not swarthy, dark haired males with foreign accents.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 02:59 pm
yea, sometimes they look like timothy mcveigh. (however you spell his name)


Quote:
It would be foolish, though, for us to underestimate the terrorists. Surely, since 2001, they have been earnestly searching for operatives who are not swarthy, dark haired males with foreign accents.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 05:10 pm
revel wrote:
yea, sometimes they look like timothy mcveigh. (however you spell his name)


I know I should resist responding to these bon mots of yours but I can't.

Is this statement intended to suggest that Timothy McVeigh was somehow connected to an Islamic terrorist organization?

Or is it simply your way of attempting a glib reminder of what virtually everyone on this thread has already acknowledged: Not all terrorists are muslims or arabs?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/10/2024 at 09:46:13