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Our War is not against Terrorism

 
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:37 pm
mesquite wrote:
Foxfyre, Do you think it would be any easier to identify those fundamentalist muslims than the fundamentalist Christians?


We can easily identify fundamentalist Muslims ... its just that the people of the world would hit the ceiling if we started dropping bombs on their rallys.

They would claim that the mob of 50,000 in the main square of Tehran or Damascus or Beruit that was shouting "Death to Amer-i-ca"[/i] over and over while burning our flag and hanging our President in effigy, was merely the peaceful march by a few 'disaffected youths' that were disagreeing with our policy on Israel.

They would claim that the groups that cheered Allah Akbar over the deaths of Americans in the World Trade Center weren't understood correctly and that Islam doesn't take pleasure is such things (Only a few hundred thousand of them ... no take no notice of them Rolling Eyes )

These are the people ... we know where they are ... we can see them on Al'Jazera most every day ... we just need to get the will to do something about them.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:35 pm
It seems to me that if Islam is really a "religion of peace," there should be plenty of peaceful mullahs and imams and clerics willing to denounce Islamofascism and excommunicate those who practice it. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:39 pm
The bad stuff is built into their religious texts, same as with Christianity. You can pick the good or you can pick the nasty.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:45 pm
Tarantulas-

Quote:
It seems to me that if Islam is really a "religion of peace," there should be plenty of peaceful mullahs and imams and clerics willing to denounce Islamofascism and excommunicate those who practice it. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.


There are two conclusions that I might draw from the fact that you see few moderate Muslims denouncing the fundamentalists:

* The moderates fear that if they "cross" the fundamentalists, there would be repercussions for them personally.

* The moderates really want the same things to happen as the fundamentalists.

Can anyone think of another rationale? I can't!
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 08:04 pm
Foxfyre wrote;

Quote:
virtually all terrorist activity around the world is done by murderous thugs who happen to all be part of radical militant fundamentalist Islam.


That is not true. About 60% of terrorism worldwide is attributed to Islamic groups.

That is not "virtually all".

It also includes many acts that I would characterize as nationalistic rather than religious ie. Palastine / Israel.

Fedral chimes in with;

Quote:
We can easily identify fundamentalist Muslims ... its just that the people of the world would hit the ceiling if we started dropping bombs on their rallys.


Shocked Confused Laughing
So if you were in charge religious genocide would be the answer?

It seems to Tarantulas;

Quote:
that if Islam is really a "religion of peace," there should be plenty of peaceful mullahs and imams and clerics willing to denounce Islamofascism and excommunicate those who practice it. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.


No need to hold your breath spiderman. There are plenty doing just that.
It's just that certain sections of the media are less inclined to pay any attention.....

Pheonix32890 opines;

Quote:
There are two conclusions that I might draw from the fact that you see few moderate Muslims denouncing the fundamentalists:

* The moderates fear that if they "cross" the fundamentalists, there would be repercussions for them personally.

* The moderates really want the same things to happen as the fundamentalists.


May I suggest a third option?

You are not looking in the right places.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 08:42 pm
Islamic and christian moderates just dont understand that the only way to spread true religion is by killing anyone who dosent believe as the fundamintalmists do. Could someone here explain to me the difference in the two conserative religious beliefs. From what I have read of the beliefs of Islam and the conserative religious christian right they both believe the only way to religious purity is to kill all those on the other side.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 08:42 pm
Islamic and christian moderates just dont understand that the only way to spread true religion is by killing anyone who dosent believe as the fundamintalmists do. Could someone here explain to me the difference in the two conserative religious beliefs. From what I have read of the beliefs of Islam and the conserative religious christian right they both believe the only way to religious purity is to kill all those on the other side.
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:08 pm
Adrian wrote:

Fedral chimes in with;

Quote:
We can easily identify fundamentalist Muslims ... its just that the people of the world would hit the ceiling if we started dropping bombs on their rallys.


Shocked Confused Laughing
So if you were in charge religious genocide would be the answer?


If a gang in me neighborhood were to stand on the sidewalk outside my house chanting
"Death to Fedrals Family"
and periodically attacking members of my family, do you think I would be the tinyest bit out of line think they meant me ill and would I be the bad guy if I walked up to one of them and kicked one of their asses?
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:17 pm
Fedral wrote:
[If a gang in me neighborhood were to stand on the sidewalk outside my house chanting
"Death to Fedrals Family"
and periodically attacking members of my family, do you think I would be the tinyest bit out of line think they meant me ill and would I be the bad guy if I walked up to one of them and kicked one of their asses?


Attacking the WTC really did knock our resolve and send us cowering, right? What makes you think continuing tit for tat is going to accomplish anything? Time to wake up and smell the roses.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:25 pm
If the group of people outside your house were blondes, would that make you want to kick the ass of all blondes?

Besides just 'cause someone shouts something at you or attacks you is no reason to kick their ass. Thats what the authorities are for.

Stop equating all Muslims with terrorism.
Stop equating all fundamentalist Muslims with terrorism.
Stop equating all Arabs with terrorism.
Go and learn what a Venn diagram is and apply the concept to your thoughts..... Please?

Not all terrorists are Muslim's.
Not all Muslim's are terrorists.
Is it really that hard to understand?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:47 pm
This is an intriguing, and, I think, important subject.

I agree with almost everything Lehman has written except the identity of the enemy.

I can't spend the time necessary to do the topic justice so will mark my place and return tomorrow night.

Many excellent contributions thus far.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:01 pm
Adrian wrote:
Not all terrorists are Muslim's.
Not all Muslim's are terrorists.
Is it really that hard to understand?

Nope. It's easy to understand.

John Lehman wrote:
Our enemy is not terrorism. Our enemy is violent, Islamic fundamentalism.

See? Easy.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:13 pm
So in the "war on terror", our enemies are NOT the terrorists!?!

We are fighting a "war on terror" against fundamentalist Muslims!?!

Odd.....
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:32 pm
Adrian wrote:
So in the "war on terror", our enemies are NOT the terrorists!?!

We are fighting a "war on terror" against fundamentalist Muslims!?!

Odd.....


Com'on Adrian

Terrorism is a method of persuasian

We're fighting an ideology which came to life in what is now Saudi Arabia in the mid 1700s. It's called Wahhabism and it's main objective it to convert all and I mean ----all-----nonbelievers to Wahhabism or kill them. It's simple-- convert them or kill them-------they use SHOCK tactics, such as beheadings to intimidate those who still have their heads-------it's really quite effective.

Now really Adrian is that so difficult to comprehend or do you just want to play games?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:38 pm
First bombing of the World Trade Center - Islamic fundamentalists took credit.

Second (fatal) bombing of the World Trade Center, Pentagon, and four airliners loaded with innocent civilians crashed - Islamic fundamentalists took credit.

Attack on the U.S.S. Cole - Islamic fundamentalists took credit.

Attack on our Marine barracks in Lebanon - Islamic fundamentalist took credit.

Pick any one of dozens of other bombings in the last several years both military and civilian target -Islamic terrorists have taken credit.

Arrest of terrorists in the last three years - every one has been an Islamic fundamentalist.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the same threat coming from Italy or Germany or Scotland or Australia or Kenya, etc. etc. etc.

Our American terrorists (McVeigh & Nichols) have been taken care of.

Since it is realistically impossible to check every bus, airline, ship passenger or event attendee thoroughly, to be too P.C. to not scrutinize Middle Eastern looking types more closely than other nationalities these days seems to me to be imprudent at best; down right stupid at worst. I think our Arab friends and allies would agree.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 11:50 pm
Perception.

If the "war on terror" is a war against non state sponsored terrorism,
then,
it has my total support.

If the "war on terror" is a war against state sponsored terrorism,
then,
Go and talk to the CIA, or Israel, or North Korea.
State sponsored terrorism = covert operations = everybody does it.

If the "war on terror" is a war against Wahhabism and/or fundementalist Islam,
then,
Good luck. You are REALLY gonna need it.

We think they're nuts for declaring jihad on us, and then we turn around and declare jihad on them?

It's a..... mad world. Crying or Very sad
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 12:22 am
The war on terror is a war against violent Islamic fundamentalism.

Note well the word "violent." It is important.

Islamic fundamentalists who sit inside their mosques and preach the nonviolent gospel of Islam to their followers are not our enemies.

Islamic fundamentalists who force school teachers to indoctrinate little children to hate Americans and Jews and all other non-Muslims are very definitely our enemies.

The former needs to marginalize the latter. And the best thing we could do is to help that process along to mimize the number of lives lost on both sides.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 12:44 am
Now we're getting somewhere. Very Happy

Quote:
Islamic fundamentalists who sit inside their mosques and preach the nonviolent gospel of Islam to their followers are not our enemies.


Fantastic. Laughing

Quote:
Islamic fundamentalists who force school teachers to indoctrinate little children to hate Americans and Jews and all other non-Muslims are very definitely our enemies.


But, there are fundamentalists the world over preaching hatred of all and sundry. Are ALL the hated to declare war on ALL the haters?
If not where do we draw the line... and how do we tell who's who?
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 02:05 am
Adrian
Unfortuniatly it seems impossible for some people to resist compartmentizling people. All blacks are on the dole. All rich are only proqureing wealth to pass it down to those under them. All Isralies are good people only interested in protecting thier "homeland". All Iraqies are members of Al Quada. All Muslims are terriosts only interested in the destruction of the US. Only the first sentence is true, the rest of the sentences after the first are garbage the citizens of the US have for some unknown reason come to accept as fact. Perhaps because our "leaders?" have repeated them so often thay have taken on the illusion of truth. I can only assume that most of us listen only to the TV brain washing adds because it only takes up 30 seconds of our time. Reading takes time and effort. Reading makes one think. God help the person who thinks for themselves. Its eaiser to let some bought and paid for politician tell us what to think.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 04:59 am
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040526/D82PUJH80.html

Quote:
Al-Qaida is probably working on plans for major attacks on the United States and Europe, and it may be seeking weapons of mass destruction in its desire to inflict as many casualties as possible, the International Institute of Strategic Studies said in its annual survey of world affairs.

Osama bin Laden's network appears to be operating in more than 60 nations, often in concert with local allies, the study by the independent think tank said.


Quote:
The United States is al-Qaida's prime target in a war it sees as a death struggle between civilizations, the report said. An al-Qaida leader has said 4 million Americans will have to be killed "as a prerequisite to any Islamic victory," the survey said.



Kinda gets you thinking, doesn't it?
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