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Leftists and "Humiliation"

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:03 am
McGentrix wrote:
Or, they (the Muslim populations) could turn the terrorists over or kill them themselves instead of hiding them and their weapons in their homes, gardens, and mosques.


So, despite your post, you are not accusing Muslims in general of aiding terrorists?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:06 am
perception wrote:
The Sopranos-----isn't that a trashy program produced by the imperialistic-----hhhmmmm whats the name?

Simple jealousy I guess---sigh----we have the only game in town. It must be infuriating for the rest of the world.


Huh? well, the devil makes good stuff. How else tempt the pure at heart?

Whadda you mean the only game in town? You are very odd. I was watching Australian tv before that.

Do you think you make the only tv in the world?

man, you need to travel more...

Mind you, the book was American....

But after this one, I am reading a biography of the dreaded Joh Bjelke-Petersen - betcha never heard of HIM.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:10 am
dlowan wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Or, they (the Muslim populations) could turn the terrorists over or kill them themselves instead of hiding them and their weapons in their homes, gardens, and mosques.


So, despite your post, you are not accusing Muslims in general of aiding terrorists?


Itry to avoid generalizations, unless they all called for. Do you deny that Muslims will hide muslim terrorists? Do you deny that we are waging a war againt Muslim fanaticism? Do you deny that the middle east is a hotbed of Muslim fanaticism and a birthplace of derisive teachings that go against everything Mohammed taught? Do you deny that Muslim fanaticism is out of hand?
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:13 am
Dlowan

When have any of us ever accused the entire Muslim society of being bad????????

I keep telling you--- it is the small -BUT DOMINANT---Radical Muslim murderers. They have intimidated the entire Muslim world.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:18 am
Once again, I draw your attention to what McGentrix actually said.

I think you may find you and he sare speaking with a different voice here, Perc.

Let's keep it simple, McGentrix. We were speaking of domestic Muslim populations.

What percentage of the US Muslim population do you accuse when you say "Or, they (the Muslim populations) could turn the terrorists over or kill them themselves instead of hiding them and their weapons in their homes, gardens, and mosque" - (note - there is no mention of "small but dominant" populations, Perc ) - McGentrix?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 09:25 am
I am speaking mostly to populations in the Middle East. Palestine immediately comes to mind.

But, ever hear of the Lackawanna 6? They were quite the little cell here in the US hiding amongst the Muslim population.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:04 am
McG,

You said:
Quote:
I am not prejudiced against Muslims. I am prejudiced against people acting like terrorists and people who hide, support, and fund terrorists. I am prejudiced agains anyone who wants me, my family, or my friends dead. I am prejudiced against any system that would preach that terrorism is a fine idea and that by sacrificing oneself and taking as many infidels with them they will find heaven and virgins. I am prejudiced against any system that would preach hate towards others. This does not sound like Islam to me, therefore I must not be prejudiced against Islam.


Definition of Prejudice:
Quote:
prej·u·dice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prj-ds)
n.


--->An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
--->A preconceived preference or idea.
--->The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.

--->Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
--->Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

tr.v. prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing, prej·u·dic·es

--->To cause (someone) to judge prematurely and irrationally. See Synonyms at bias.
--->To affect injuriously or detrimentally by a judgment or an act.

Link


Here's an idea - why don't you make an effort to avoid being prejudiced period?

That way you could despise people or groups who you knew were terrorists. You'd be judging them on what they'd done or the set of beliefs that they publicly subscribe to - you wouldn't be "pre-judging" them, you'd be judging them on what they'd already done.

Sorry if I sound like I'm nitpicking but anytime I hear someone championing prejudice, in any form, it makes my stomach turn.

The point here is: Get your facts then make your decision. Don't make your decision and then look for supporting facts.

Quote:
Itry to avoid generalizations, unless they all called for. Do you deny that Muslims will hide muslim terrorists? Do you deny that we are waging a war againt Muslim fanaticism? Do you deny that the middle east is a hotbed of Muslim fanaticism and a birthplace of derisive teachings that go against everything Mohammed taught? Do you deny that Muslim fanaticism is out of hand?


Your quote above doesn't make a whole lot of sense. To make my point I provide you with this question:

Do you think that good Christians would hide a Christian fundamentalist fanatic who bombed abortion clinics?

I don't think that would be any more likely to occur than a good Muslim hiding a Muslim fundamentalist terrorist. If you think that the likely hood is higher in the Muslim example, please explain why.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:41 am
But we are not talking about chritians hiding christians, or hindu's hiding hindu's, or christians crashing planes into skyscrapers, or strapping bombs to themselves, or anything like that. We are talking about fanatical muslims and the actions they perpetrate.

I pre-judge people based on the actions of their peers. If the people I see are dressed in black, hiding their faces, burning american flags, waving their AK's in the air and killing US troops then I will be prejudiced against them. I am sorry if that upsets your stomach, but that is my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 10:53 am
McG,

Quote:
I pre-judge people based on the actions of their peers.


Quote:
Do you deny that Muslims will hide muslim terrorists?


Shall I believe, then, that you believe a Muslim is peer to a fanatical Muslim terrorist?

Is that what you are trying to say? (I don't think it is - but that's how I'm reading it.)

Nice way of dodging my question btw...

My question:
Quote:
Your quote above doesn't make a whole lot of sense. To make my point I provide you with this question:

Do you think that good Christians would hide a Christian fundamentalist fanatic who bombed abortion clinics?

I don't think that would be any more likely to occur than a good Muslim hiding a Muslim fundamentalist terrorist. If you think that the likelyhood is higher in the Muslim example, please explain why.


Your reply:
Quote:
But we are not talking about chritians hiding christians, or hindu's hiding hindu's, or christians crashing planes into skyscrapers, or strapping bombs to themselves, or anything like that. We are talking about fanatical muslims and the actions they perpetrate.




Lemme know.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 11:01 am
Happened on this thread and skimmed it -- very lightly. I just don't believe that the "incidents" that triggered this thread actually happened.

Furthermore, bush and his coherts continually break what little of international law there is. Ben Stein's comments this weekend that say we can do what we like because we are the good guys, followed up by General Kimmit's response to the revealation that the wedding was probably a wedding sound like the US has given white hats to the AMericans and black hats to the Iraqis.

It also sounds like ANimal Farm.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 11:07 am
Jer,

In Ireland, many fine, upstanding Irishmen hid members of the IRA to A) keep them from being discovered, B) because they were afraid they or their families would be murdered, C) they believed in the cause the IRA was fighting for, and D) sometimes all 3.

The same happens in Muslim communities, or in many war zones.

Do I think that the likelyhood is higher in Muslim communities? It depends on the community and the cause. I will not say that every Muslim community would do it becuase that would not be true. Just as not every German turned in every Jew during WW2. There are good people to be found everywhere.

But, in a warzone like Palestine or Iraq, I believe that people are indeed hiding terrorists. Mostly from fear.

I also think that Muslim culture in the Middle East is FAR different than christian culture in America. Comparing the 2 does no justice to either one. I believe that Muslims in the ME are a much tighter group that follow very different laws that the Christians in the US. so, IN THIS CASE, I would say that YES, the likelyhood of of a good Muslim hiding a Muslim fundamentalist terrorist is much higher.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 11:16 am
McG,

Thank you for your response - I appreciate it when you clarify your statements because it allows me to avoid pre-judging you Wink

Note that I never said anything about Christians in the US - just Christians...adding the "US" to it must just be the American in you Wink (that's just being playful btw)

Have a good day.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 01:13 pm
plainoldme wrote:
Happened on this thread and skimmed it -- very lightly. I just don't believe that the "incidents" that triggered this thread actually happened.

Why?

plainoldme wrote:
Furthermore, bush and his coherts continually break what little of international law there is.

For example?

plainoldme wrote:
Ben Stein's comments this weekend that say we can do what we like because we are the good guys, followed up by General Kimmit's response to the revealation that the wedding was probably a wedding sound like the US has given white hats to the AMericans and black hats to the Iraqis.

Did you see the wedding pictures?
0 Replies
 
mporter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 01:15 pm
McGentrix- If you haven't read Bernard Lewis's seminal essay on Islam, you really should read it.

Lewis takes pains to separate the fundamentalist radical Whaabists from the rest of Islam and explains that they are so dangerous since they are, in the service of their twisted Islam beliefs, willing to die to( as Lewis explains so clearly) bring the world to ISLAM. Lewis is not as sanguine as Jer shen he says that the Islamic fundamentalist radicals view this as a clash of civilizations,

see www.theatlantic,com/issues/90sep/rage.htm
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 07:13 pm
mporter wrote:
BoWoGo says;
Nah Nah Nah, my abuse is worse than your abuse.

I submit that it is this kind of thinking that led to the Holocaust.
The German people were led to believe that the "abuse" caused by the left wingers, Socialists and Communists( supposedly but erroneously made up solely of Jews, according to Adolf Hitler) during the Weimar Republic, was eroding their Folk Culture.

. I don't think Hitler knew about feeding people feet first into shredders.



Godwin's Law!!!!Godwin's Law

mporter - you are a marvel. Less than 5 weeks as a forum member you have managed to accuse your detractors as Nazis!! I saw even better on ABUZZ, but it could be a first for here.
0 Replies
 
mporter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:06 am
I made reference to the fact that the Nazis used the same kind of propaganda that the radical fringe Iraqis use.

There is no moral equivalancy and you can't claim that there is.

There is no moral equivalancy between what Saddam has done and what we did in Abu Ghraib.

There is no moral equivalancy between what Saddam and the murderers who flew into the WTC did and what we have done in Abu Ghraib.

Anyone who is so idiotic to think that there are no soldiers in our army who will not commit atrocities is a complete liberal partisan.

I hope that you are acquainted with the second world war.

If the liberals had dared, they would have said:
"sure, Hitler is gassing Jews, but we are supposed to be better and not have fire bombed Dresden to kill thousands."

If the liberals had dared, they would have said: Sure, we might lose a million men if we invaded Japan but, we are supposed to be better and not have dropped the Atomic Bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

You may not be aware of it, Mr. Stillwater, but the real difference between the radical murderers of Mr.Berg and our army is that our miscreants are punished by courtmartial.

You may not be aware of it, Mr. Stillwater but the real difference between our society and the radical killers in Iraq is that our doctors work to replace the ears cut off of Iraqi "criminals" by Saddam and our doctors work to replace the Right hands of Iraqis with robot arms after they were cut off by Saddam.

There is a difference between our culture and radical Islam's culture. It is a huge difference. We operate according to the Rule of Law. They operate according to the Rules of Tribal Vengence. If you can't see the difference, I feel sorry for you.
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mporter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:16 am
plain old me might not have read General Kimmit's response about the "alleged" wedding. I will replicate it here. It is from the Chicago Tribune, May25, P. 10

quote General Kimmitt

"These are pictures that are inconsistent in my mind with a wedding party. One could say, yes, it is true that out in the desert you need to have a rifle to protect yourself against Ali Baba,but the NECESSITY FOR ROCKET PROPELLED LAUNCHERS,ROCKET LAUNCHERS IN THE BOTTOM, SPECIAL MACHINE GUNS, MAY BE A LITTLE MUCH FOR ALI BABA OUT THERE.
What we found on the ground andour poststrike analysis suggests tha what we had was a SIGNIFICANT FOREIGN FIGHTER SMUGGLER WAY STATION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT THAT WAS BRINGING PEOPLE INTO THIS COUNTRY FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF ATTACKING TO KILL THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ,"

end of quote.

It is clear that the Iraqi fanatic fringe, like Hitler and the Nazis who FAKED a Polish attack on German troops just before Sept. 1st , are master propagandists and blatant liars.
0 Replies
 
mporter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:17 am
Who called someone a Nazi? May I have a reference?
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 04:20 pm
I don't believe the incidents that gave rise to this thread happened outside of the imagination of the poster because the style of reportage is unbelievable. This is not the way people act.

Furthermore, the left believes it has a mission to protect the helpless -- children, animals, the environment -- and tries to do so.

Lastly, bush invaded a sovereign nation. What would you say if another country tried to remove bush? Or Tony Blair?
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 10:17 pm
mporter wrote:
I made reference to the fact that the Nazis used the same kind of propaganda that the radical fringe Iraqis use.

There is no moral equivalancy and you can't claim that there is.

There is no moral equivalancy between what Saddam has done and what we did in Abu Ghraib.

There is no moral equivalancy between what Saddam and the murderers who flew into the WTC did and what we have done in Abu Ghraib.

Anyone who is so idiotic to think that there are no soldiers in our army who will not commit atrocities is a complete liberal partisan.

I hope that you are acquainted with the second world war.

If the liberals had dared, they would have said:
"sure, Hitler is gassing Jews, but we are supposed to be better and not have fire bombed Dresden to kill thousands."

If the liberals had dared, they would have said: Sure, we might lose a million men if we invaded Japan but, we are supposed to be better and not have dropped the Atomic Bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

You may not be aware of it, Mr. Stillwater, but the real difference between the radical murderers of Mr.Berg and our army is that our miscreants are punished by courtmartial.

You may not be aware of it, Mr. Stillwater but the real difference between our society and the radical killers in Iraq is that our doctors work to replace the ears cut off of Iraqi "criminals" by Saddam and our doctors work to replace the Right hands of Iraqis with robot arms after they were cut off by Saddam.

There is a difference between our culture and radical Islam's culture. It is a huge difference. We operate according to the Rule of Law. They operate according to the Rules of Tribal Vengence. If you can't see the difference, I feel sorry for you.



You didn't say any of those things - they're all sort of wrapped in your head as a package which you pull out and repeat ad nauseum. There is no connecting logic in any of this.

You start with 'radical Muslims', then Saddam and 9/11, and then Japan is being bombed , closely followed by Berg's murder, then we're on a medical mission in Iraq with 'robot' arms and finally we're back at radical Islam. There is nothing to tie ANY of those themes together, and most importantly of all - they have nothing whatsoever to do with your contention that some sort of 'thinking' will lead to the Holocaust.

What kind of thinking?? Which kind of people doing which thinking? The original article is about westerners who criticise American policies and by some sort of extension then worship nations that repress dissent. Nothing about the Weimer Republic, the rise of Nazism and the roots of European anti-Semitism. But off you go. Criticism of US foreign policy = Apologism for Saddam Hussein = Nazi purity laws = Islamic radicalism = Bombing of civilian targets in WW2 = Daniel Berg's murder = Prosthetics for the Iraqi maimed.

Next time, break up your ideas and follow a theme. Keep the ideas and themes relevent to the topic and most importantly of all - don't crap on about the goddam Holocaust or Nazis when there is no reason.
0 Replies
 
 

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