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"Full Sovereignty for Iraq on June 30"

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 01:56 pm
In my opinion, the only ones patronizing the Iraqis are those who give them no chance for success or those who maintain they are not ready for democracy or some reasonable facsimile of democracy.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:11 pm
McGentrix wrote:

C'mon Craven, surely you recognize a metaphor when you see one.


Yes I do. I don't recall ever suggesting that she had not used a metaphor. I did, however, link to an old thread in which I elaborated on my feelings that the use of such metaphors represents a cultural hubris.

Metaphor and patronage are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
You don't really believe that Foxfyre is patronizing them or calling them children, do you?


Yes, I do. Look up the word's root. Her comparison to the situation as being one of parent and child is the very meaning of patronizing.

The frequent use of diminuitives in metaphor is something I think is indicative of a recent trend in which Americans assume the air of a patron (patronize) to a people they'd once spoken about with references to liberation.

Slowly the tone of the metaphors is changing from one of a people to be freed to a people to be babysat and taught.

It's not, however, devoid of justification, as our relationship with the Iraqis does have elements of being a patron.

Thing is, Americans on average are are too quick to assume the position of patron (in both the good and bad meanings of the word). When Iraqis express the desire to end our occupation Foxfyre writes it off as a childish "I hate you" instead of a recognition of the universal wish for self-determination.

I think that is an ignorant train of thought. It's not like we'd appreciate occupation, we'd want to end it as well and that doesn't make the wish for self-determination a childlike expression of conflicted emotion.

We are not the Iraqis' parents. We have no claim to authority over them. And the sooner we divest ourselves of the arrogant metaphors that portray that kind of relationship the sooner we can be rid of that ugly mentality (wishful thinking).

Quote:

Or, is the next big thing misinterpreting peoples statements to purposefully make them look different than intended?


I did no such thing by posting a link to a thread speaking of a trend that manifested itself herein.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
In my opinion, the only ones patronizing the Iraqis are those who give them no chance for success or those who maintain they are not ready for democracy or some reasonable facsimile of democracy.


You will be hard pressed to try to portray a metaphor of parent/child as not being patronage. It is the very definition of patronage (unless you had my invented word meaning for matronage in mind).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:13 pm
Craven you dug yourself a deep hole on this one. Unless you have credentials showing some special clairvoyance or esp, your conclusion about my intent is pure speculation and gross bull pucky.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:15 pm
I made no conclusions about your intent. I made conclusions to the effect that the words you used constituted patronage (or matronage, as you specified no sex in your metaphor).
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Archbishop
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:20 pm
Foxfire commented "The only evidence I've seen that the Iraqis want the U.S. to leave comes from the terrorists. It is because of the terrorists that I believe the Iraqis have not asked us to let them take over now."

Your assessment must be correct, since the President has often said that everyone in Iraq and the U.S. who do not agree with his policies in Iraq is either a terrorist or supporter of terrorism.

Although, since to show dissent would identify any Iraqi as one or the other and with incarceration beckoning, how many would dare ask the administration to go?

Something of a conundrum?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:22 pm
Had Foxfyre used simile instead of metaphor, I might be inclined to agree with you, but as a metaphor, I believe she was approriate.

"the Iraqi's are like children" is far different than "the relationship is not unlike that of parent/child."

I can see a difference.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:27 pm
Brand X wrote:
Bet he treats his new car like a child. Laughing


Nah, I put 1,000+ miles on it in a few days. It had 5,000 some miles and is now past 7,000. Plus I let wimmin in, so it's a defiled car (wimmin are evil).

But remember that I own my car. That is a relevant distinction.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:29 pm
Archbishop wrote:
Your assessment must be correct, since the President has often said that everyone in Iraq and the U.S. who do not agree with his policies in Iraq is either a terrorist or supporter of terrorism.

Please post a link to the place where you're getting this information. A documented quote from the President would do.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:30 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Had Foxfyre used simile instead of metaphor, I might be inclined to agree with you, but as a metaphor, I believe she was approriate.


Fair enough. Reasonable persons can disagree on whether it was or was not appropriate.

Plus, I don't care to push it as I do not ascribe to Foxfyre any particular malice, just involvement in a linguistic trend that is starting to change our characterization from liberator to parent. The former places emphasis on self-determination and the latter its converse.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:33 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Had Foxfyre used simile instead of metaphor, I might be inclined to agree with you, but as a metaphor, I believe she was approriate.


Fair enough. Reasonable persons can disagree on whether it was or was not appropriate.

Plus, I don't care to push it as I do not ascribe to Foxfyre any particular malice, just involvement in a linguistic trend that is starting to change our characterization from liberator to parent. The former places emphasis on self-determination and the latter its converse.


Oh, this is just great...first dlowen agrees with me, twice and now I am being accused of being reasonable?!? WTF?
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:38 pm
I can see the comparison as a parent, teaching/ training their child for independence and letting go.
Hoping the preparation was good enough that they don't have to send more cash/ troops.

Looking forward to their graduation/ UN/ Human Rights committee meeting speech, wherein I/we can sit back and smile, knowing we had something to do with their success/ independence/ freedom...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:12 pm
OMG, all this reasonableness that has popped up on A2K lately is sooner or later going to force me to suggest another group hug. (And I KNOW Craven will just hate that. Smile )
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:30 pm
Sophia wrote (In signature block):
In all my fleshly glory. I shall do what it takes to lure our esteemed Craven back to Politics. Note if you will, the supple roundness of my left breast!

Damn Sophia---you never talk to me that way----I just don't understand it.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:35 pm
You're already here!

I hadta use my wimminly wiles to find Craven. He went missin'.

I've got to run soon, but if you need some dirty talk, start a thread. I never can seem to pass it up.

<smiles, arching back and tilting chin>
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:45 pm
mporter wrote:
Now, Mr. Blatham, the Canadian, says that this is a purposeful deceit thorough the use of language.
Mr. Blatham acts as if he knows all about our History. In truth, he appears to know very little about our political history.

I am sure that Mr. Blatham knows nothing, nothing about how back channels operate.

In his book, "The Dark Side of Camelot" , the author Seymour M. Hersh( a name that has appeared in the newspapers quite a lot lately) reveals that the stunning victory of the Liberal idol, President John F. Kennedy told the country that he made Khruschev blink during the missle crisis.

John F. Kennedy did not tell the truth.

Mr. Blatham doesn't know that there are back channels--poor man.

Hersh reveals the following:

"Sorensen's published account was a half-truth. As he knew, and would not reveal for twenty-seven years, the crisis was resolved when Bobby Kennedy, on behalf of his brother, held a last minute meeting with Dobrynin and made a SECRET ARRANGEMENT TO GIVE NIKITA KHRUSCHEV THE TRADE HE WANTED--JUPITER MISSLES REMOVED FROM TURKEY IN EXCHANGE FOR WITHDRAWAL OF SOVIET MISSLES FROM CUBA...WITH A MISSLE TRADE ON THE TABLE, BOBBY KENNEDY ASKED DOBRYNIN AND KHRUSCHEV FOR SECRECY EXPLAINING THAT ONLY TWO OR THREE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON WERE AWARE OF THE BEHIND THE SCENES BARGAINING..."THE PRESIDENT CAN'T SAY ANYTHING PUBLIC IN THIS REGARD"

pp. 365-366



It would appear that President Bush is being far more forthcoming in this Iraq crisis than the Camelot president was in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And Kennedy gloried in the credit that he made Khruschev Blink. He did no such thing.

Mr. Blatham's outrage is revealed when he says:

"More of that audience really ought to yell about the callous misrepresentation"

I must remind Mr. Blatham that most Americans don't take advice from a country like Canada or Canadians. Since Canada has no first amendment, they arw apparently stifiling speech with the Bill C-250 which is a repressive anti-free-speech measure that is on the brink of becoming law in Canada.

Mr.Blatham apparently doesn't know that American voters make up their own minds and don't need Gestapo like tactics ( Bill C-250) to stop their mouths.

Canada, as Alan Borovoy, general counsel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, has said, is a PLEASANTLY AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY"

Thank you, Mr. Blatham, but we need no authoritarisans from the North to tell us what to do.


Hmm - well, not to derail the thread - but those Turkish missiles were a gnat's whisker (I have a half-sense they were out-dated and scheduled for removal, anyway - certainly NOT strategically significant any more) compared with the removal of the Cuban missiles.

I think it is quite clear that Kruschev DID "blink" - which is especially noteworthy given his previous extremely low opinion of Kennedy's abilities.

Mporter - would you actually rather that nuclear war had been unleashed than have the US get rid of a few strategically unimportant missiles from Turkey?

Rather than considering that a "dark side" of the stupidly named Camelot (how Kennedy would have hated THAT!), I consider a reasonable and face-saving compromise in that situation a triumph of diplomacy.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:50 pm
Another picture please----you know to go with the smile, arching back etc. One with a "little" more detail----these passport snipets just don't get the job done.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:51 pm
Though quite what kennedy has to do with this thread I cannot fathom.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:54 pm
Interesting interview, Tarantulus.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:57 pm
Oh m'god the human talking machine gun is back-----I gota ask ya bunny-----does your husband go off for long periods of time?
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