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"Full Sovereignty for Iraq on June 30"

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 09:26 pm
Sofia, Sounds like a fair challenge to me! If Bush lied, you vote for Nader. We'll know soon enough. Wink
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 09:37 pm
Quote:
I guess you see full sov. as either being evidenced by a pull-out of US/coalition forces, or handing the keys to US/coalition troops to Iraq.


ARGHHHHH!

No, I see 'full sovereignty' EXACTLY as you would define it in your neighborhood and nation. Thus my analogy. And it is a complete pretence to say they'll have what you have.

A pull out of troops is NOT necessary. You could have a division of french soldiers down the block from you and that would be fine. But not if your community courts couldn't put them on trial for breaking the laws of your community. Not if it had been mandated that your neighborhood would be under the control of a French 'advisor'. Ya get me????
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 12:25 am
Sofia wrote:
Hard to reconcile them with what?


Justice, freedom, honesty, integrity, compassion-all those values that fall under the banner of human decency with no dollar signs attached.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 05:51 am
Quote:
A pull out of troops is NOT necessary. You could have a division of french soldiers down the block from you and that would be fine. But not if your community courts couldn't put them on trial for breaking the laws of your community. Not if it had been mandated that your neighborhood would be under the control of a French 'advisor'. Ya get me????


That is the problem exactly, blatham, with the current set up in Iraq.

It seems that there is division among Iraqi's if they want the Iraqi's to sort be like on reserve in case they can't handle a situation or just plain want the occupation to leave because they are a magnet for danger from terrorist. Get rid of the target and you get rid of half the secuirty problem. But one thing they agree on is that they don't like the occupation by a poll of 80%.

I don't know if the link to what I just stated will work and you do have to register, but here it is.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35558-2004Jun11.html

I already posted that link on another thread but it seems to fit here as well.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 08:00 am
revel

Link works fine. And yes, it's very relevant.

sofia will simply not allow herself to acknowledge that Bush is forwarding a transparent falsehood. Nor foxfyre, nor some others.

The only person on the thread who's noted the single possible justification was perception, who noted the argument that this is all a charade, but a necessary charade. That at least has the courage of acknowledging the central falsehood.

But, as I wrote previously, that justification isn't coherent. And your link points out exactly why...the Iraqis see every day that it is a charade. This isn't going to piss them off? This isn't going to give them just one more piece of evidence that Bush can't be trusted to speak truths?

The charade is not for them. The charade is for home consumption, and for the election. And with fox and sofia, it worked.

In the old Three Stooges movies, Moe would line up his brothers (or some group group) when they were being stupid, and starting at one end. move along slapping their faces. A stooge-slap. Boy, do I want to line up all the people who just accept what comes out of Bush's mouth regardless of the evidence right in front of their eyes, and give THEM a stooge-slap.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 09:00 am
Okay, blatham, no violence. We're talking about "perception" here.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 05:30 pm
Why not stooge slap the Bush administration instead?

But I know what you mean. It is so very frustrating how willfully blind some people are.

When the abuse scandal broke out I was shocked to hear Chris Matthews say that when you are interrogating prisoners and they have information you have to use harsh methods. He said that in defense of the abuse allegations. That is where America is at right now and it is sad.

I don't know what is going to happen to the Iraq situation. If we are all still alive and have computers it will be interesting to see how things look over there in five years.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 06:27 pm
Considering the abuse that happened there in the public eye, I can only imagine what they've been doing to those people at camp xray who've been imprisoned for the last 2 years without charge.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 01:38 pm
regarding the handover; I ran across a yahoo article I found interesting.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=42&u=/usatoday/20040614/ts_usatoday/fallujahbrigadetriesuspatience

sorry for the long url. I don't know how to put little button words for the urls.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 04:07 pm
http://www.bartcop.com/www-auto-show.jpg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 04:11 pm
Nasty!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 06:13 am
Every once in a while, someone opens their mouth and the wrong words pour forth. What makes them wrong are their truthfulness...

Quote:
"If Americans are in danger, if there's a really bad person we've got to go after, it's the same old rules," Wolfowitz told reporters traveling with him, making clear that U.S. forces had no intention of withdrawing from the fight. "But we would like people to see that something has changed. In the first few weeks, a lot of the challenge is how to create some optics when the underlying substance hasn't changed that much."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56479-2004Jun20.html
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 01:34 pm
http://www.bartcop.com/b-beat.JPG
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 01:53 pm
Please please me :wink:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 11:51 pm
Quote:
Iraq Gov't Must Abide by U.S. - Made Laws

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. led-coalition, facing a Wednesday deadline to hand back power, has put in place major legal revisions that would force Iraqis to get drivers' licenses, obey traffic laws, ban certain people from holding office and place American contractors above the law.

Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish politician and member of the disbanded U.S.-picked Governing Council, said he thinks the Americans began pushing the flurry of laws once it became clear the occupation would be cut short. Washington's earlier plans, he said, called for a longer occupation that would have allowed Iraq's constitution to be written under U.S. watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-US-Law.html

Now, that's sovereignty.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 12:21 am
Quote:
Iraq handover of power begins today
28/06/2004 - 07:02:13

The transfer of sovereignty to the interim Iraqi government is being speeded up from the existing June 30 deadline, the country's foreign minister said today following NATO summit talks with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Mr Blair did not immediately confirm the switch but said a formal announcement would be made "a little bit later".

That could come after talks between Mr Blair and US President George Bush this afternoon in Istanbul, where they are attending the NATO summit of 26 heads of state and government.

Iraqi foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari told reporters after his talks: "We will challenge these elements in Iraq, the anti-democratic elements, by even bringing the handover of sovereignty before June 30 as a sign we are ready for it."

Asked about the change of date Mr Blair replied: "I think you will have to wait for an announcement on that a little bit later."

Mr Blair did, however, stress the readiness of the interim administration in Baghdad, led by prime minister Ayad Allawi, to take control of the country.

Asked again about speeding up the handover, Mr Blair told reporters: "I'm not actually in a position right at this moment to confirm that, but the important thing is to understand that the will of the whole international community now is with Iraq as it takes control of its own destiny.

"We are there to help and support from now on."

Mr Zebari did not specify when exactly the handover would take place, but it is expected to happen swiftly.

Earlier, after his breakfast talks with the Iraqi foreign and defence ministers, Mr Blair paid tribute "to their courage".

Mr Blair said: "These are two people who are engaged in an immensely important struggle not just on behalf of Iraq, but I believe the whole region and the wider world."
Source
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 08:28 am
Well, if nothing else, the June 30 date is out the window. Of course the practical effect of The Handover remains to be seen, and of course there will be ranting and railing from The Usual Sources that its a puppet government. I think nonetheless today's development makes it a bit harder for US opponents to continue to turn their backs to the Iraqi People.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 08:33 am
timberlandko wrote:
Well, if nothing else, the June 30 date is out the window. Of course the practical effect of The Handover remains to be seen, and of course there will be ranting and railing from The Usual Sources that its a puppet government. I think nonetheless today's development makes it a bit harder for US opponents to continue to turn their backs to the Iraqi People.


Quote:

The low-key ceremony was over before it was announced and came as a surprise to ordinary Iraqis. Its hurried and furtive nature appeared to reflect fears that guerrillas could stage a spectacular attack on the scheduled date of June 30.
Source

Quote:

Noun 1. puppet government - a government that is appointed by and whose affairs are directed by an outside authority that may impose hardships on those governed
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 08:34 am
Thus, being the first in the queue of

timberlandko wrote:
The Usual Sources
:wink:
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 08:34 am
I think NATO is going to help train Iraqi security forces now, that's a start.
0 Replies
 
 

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