Sofia, Sounds like a fair challenge to me! If Bush lied, you vote for Nader. We'll know soon enough.
Quote:I guess you see full sov. as either being evidenced by a pull-out of US/coalition forces, or handing the keys to US/coalition troops to Iraq.
ARGHHHHH!
No, I see 'full sovereignty' EXACTLY as you would define it in your neighborhood and nation. Thus my analogy. And it is a complete pretence to say they'll have what you have.
A pull out of troops is NOT necessary. You could have a division of french soldiers down the block from you and that would be fine. But not if your community courts couldn't put them on trial for breaking the laws of your community. Not if it had been mandated that your neighborhood would be under the control of a French 'advisor'. Ya get me????
Sofia wrote:Hard to reconcile them with what?
Justice, freedom, honesty, integrity, compassion-all those values that fall under the banner of human decency with no dollar signs attached.
Quote:A pull out of troops is NOT necessary. You could have a division of french soldiers down the block from you and that would be fine. But not if your community courts couldn't put them on trial for breaking the laws of your community. Not if it had been mandated that your neighborhood would be under the control of a French 'advisor'. Ya get me????
That is the problem exactly, blatham, with the current set up in Iraq.
It seems that there is division among Iraqi's if they want the Iraqi's to sort be like on reserve in case they can't handle a situation or just plain want the occupation to leave because they are a magnet for danger from terrorist. Get rid of the target and you get rid of half the secuirty problem. But one thing they agree on is that they don't like the occupation by a poll of 80%.
I don't know if the link to what I just stated will work and you do have to register, but here it is.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35558-2004Jun11.html
I already posted that link on another thread but it seems to fit here as well.
revel
Link works fine. And yes, it's very relevant.
sofia will simply not allow herself to acknowledge that Bush is forwarding a transparent falsehood. Nor foxfyre, nor some others.
The only person on the thread who's noted the single possible justification was perception, who noted the argument that this is all a charade, but a necessary charade. That at least has the courage of acknowledging the central falsehood.
But, as I wrote previously, that justification isn't coherent. And your link points out exactly why...the Iraqis see every day that it is a charade. This isn't going to piss them off? This isn't going to give them just one more piece of evidence that Bush can't be trusted to speak truths?
The charade is not for them. The charade is for home consumption, and for the election. And with fox and sofia, it worked.
In the old Three Stooges movies, Moe would line up his brothers (or some group group) when they were being stupid, and starting at one end. move along slapping their faces. A stooge-slap. Boy, do I want to line up all the people who just accept what comes out of Bush's mouth regardless of the evidence right in front of their eyes, and give THEM a stooge-slap.
Okay, blatham, no violence. We're talking about "perception" here.
Why not stooge slap the Bush administration instead?
But I know what you mean. It is so very frustrating how willfully blind some people are.
When the abuse scandal broke out I was shocked to hear Chris Matthews say that when you are interrogating prisoners and they have information you have to use harsh methods. He said that in defense of the abuse allegations. That is where America is at right now and it is sad.
I don't know what is going to happen to the Iraq situation. If we are all still alive and have computers it will be interesting to see how things look over there in five years.
Considering the abuse that happened there in the public eye, I can only imagine what they've been doing to those people at camp xray who've been imprisoned for the last 2 years without charge.
regarding the handover; I ran across a yahoo article I found interesting.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=42&u=/usatoday/20040614/ts_usatoday/fallujahbrigadetriesuspatience
sorry for the long url. I don't know how to put little button words for the urls.
Every once in a while, someone opens their mouth and the wrong words pour forth. What makes them wrong are their truthfulness...
Quote:
"If Americans are in danger, if there's a really bad person we've got to go after, it's the same old rules," Wolfowitz told reporters traveling with him, making clear that U.S. forces had no intention of withdrawing from the fight. "But we would like people to see that something has changed. In the first few weeks, a lot of the challenge is how to create some optics when the underlying substance hasn't changed that much."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56479-2004Jun20.html
Well, if nothing else, the June 30 date is out the window. Of course the practical effect of The Handover remains to be seen, and of course there will be ranting and railing from The Usual Sources that its a puppet government. I think nonetheless today's development makes it a bit harder for US opponents to continue to turn their backs to the Iraqi People.
Thus, being the first in the queue of
timberlandko wrote: The Usual Sources
:wink:
I think NATO is going to help train Iraqi security forces now, that's a start.