Speaking of lacking precision...
My use of the word "any" renders the statement idiotic. I should not use that logical operator here.
Craven de Kere wrote:(unless the criteria is skewed toward making any criticism an attack and your criticisms not an attack).
well, this mood of mine has got to play itself out, so I am going to ask a question that more than likey I am either going to get ignored as silly or just told is silly. But anyway, who is dwarfy?
oh well, i knew it was risky. thanks anyway
What fun the last several interactions have been ... I was gonna argue with CdK a bit just for form, but the current trend of the thread sorta renders that approach moot. Though I'm not exactly in agreement with him, his comments strike me as the most reasoned and sensible of the recent lot.
I think Bush is praying that the new government asks the coalition to leave. That's the only way he's going to manage an honourable exit from the disaster.
Wilso, I don't think that's in the cards just now. We'll have to wait and see; it seems terrorist activities are on the increase.
I noticed happily that the Iraqi forces asked the US troops to stand down today--but stand by--and allow them to try to put down a skirmish with Sadr's insurgents.
They fought for a while, and then asked the US to step in.
This is what full sovereignty looks like.
Quote:This is what full sovereignty looks like.
Nah, it really isn't.
Your city, let's say it's Crooked Elbow, Iadho, had a bad mayor and so the Chinese army came in to remove him and they are driving their tanks all around town and bashing down doors and arresting suspicious folks and maybe torturing some. And let's also say that you have three policemen and a town clerk who have formed a provisional government and they were allowed to represent the population because the Chinese liked them. And let's also say that each neighborhood has a Chinese representative who, by law, will remain in charge for a year or more.
Sound like your town is fully sovereign?
If I couldn't walk down the street before-- If my father had his hand cut off by the mayor, if my brother was forced into the army at age 14, if my uncle was tortured because our local Soccer team lost, if I was starving...
And the Chinese enabled me to go to school, vote and gave daddy a new hand, and fixed the electricity and supplied clean water--
And, they were paying friends and family a decent wage to train to become police to take back our town--and I finally knew I was free...
I'd be thankful to the Chinese, and I'd look forward to the day my town was ready to run things in the new way.
I would be thankful someone came to help.
The Najaf police asked the US to stand down--and they did. Relating to sovereignty--this day matters. The US deferred to the local Iraqi forces. Who had sovereignty? Who's wishes were followed? Sovereignty=the last word.
The US now has unanimous international approval for the transition. I'd think you'd be pleased.
It's hard to reconcile people with Socialist leanings, not preferring a democracy to a dictatorship.
What about the 'people'?
sofia
How convenient that you ignore the particular sentence of yours which I quote and address.
Sofia wrote:It's hard to reconcile people with Socialist leanings, not preferring a democracy to a dictatorship.
What about the 'people'?
And I find it very hard to reconcile people with fascist leanings.
Hard to reconcile them with what?
Well, Blatham--
The truth is not always easily packaged into sound bites.
When I look at the overview of Iraq, I see a birth.
When a woman is screaming and bleeding in the throes of childbirth--there are those, who can say, "What a glorious miracle!" ...while others see only the screaming, pain and gore.
If your analogy had incorporated the vote in January, the UN resolution--in other words, been more fair, I may have answered. You skewed it, IMO. No harm. No, your analogy, as written, didn't seem like sovereingty.
sofia
The precise purpose of this thread was to note a falsehood (a lie) voiced by the President and to watch its development and to also watch how citizens (mainly those here) would deal with a transparent whopper. It has played out pretty much the way all the earlier ones have, but with some change as to the media's willingness to challenge it right off the bat. That's been still too limited and certainly without proper outrage in the main, but it's a positive change.
You have attempted here a typical strategy...it would read something like this, "It isn't the correspondence between real facts and the words coming out of the President's mouth that is the issue...there is a deeper truth involved". Thus, he's either not spouting BS at all, or it doesn't matter if he is. I figure that is a pretty shoddy standard for the greatest and most free/democratic country in history.
My analogy wasn't perfect, you're right. But it was close enough to demonstrate how big a lie Bush's words are.
Whether or not there is moral, legal, and politcal justification for the war and the period after the war and the timing of the turnover and the machinations of the turnover are all complex questions, and have been discussed much everywhere.
But the simplest of demands we might make in a democracy, simple but deeply important, is that the people we elect TELL US THE FACTS, AND DO NOT LIE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.
Yes, I understand what the thread intended, and your opinion that 'full sovereingty' is a lie.
Obviously, I disagree.
I guess you see full sov. as either being evidenced by a pull-out of US/coalition forces, or handing the keys to US/coalition troops to Iraq.
I guess those who believe as I do see it (FSov) as self-determination. I believe the last word on Iraq will belong to Iraq on 7/1.
Arguments were made that Germany has been sovereign, though the US had troops there, as have a number of other countries. Additional arguments pointed to US willingness to leave if asked.
I wasn't trying to rehash the reasons for war, and it DOES matter if Bush is spewing BS... not looking for the deeper truth of 'liberation', but how the overview of what has happened relates to sovereignty.
Calling the shots as an occupier; and handing the reins over, yet calling the military op shots, as a welcomed security force, I believe, are an important distinction.
If Iraq asks us to leave, and we don't, you will have my sincere apologies--and my promise not to vote for Bush. I can't in good conscience vote for Kerry--but will write-in, or vote protest for Nader, if Bush goes back on his word to Iraq.
I believe he is sincere.
