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"Full Sovereignty for Iraq on June 30"

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 08:52 am
blatham wrote:
perc

My argument in its entirety is that the use of 'full and complete' is simply a lie, and that it is a lie designed for home consumption.

I'd far rather have a right-leaning government that had integrity to the truth (say, as a government led by McCain would likely have) than a left-leaning government that lied about so much of importance as has this one.


Blatham old pal

I'm amazed by your brazen attempt in your first sentence to bludgeon me with an unsupported absolutism and then attempt to regain the moral high ground with simplistic quacking about preferring a right leaning gov't (with integrity) over a lying left leaning gov't.

Are you trying to tell me that after months of touting the virtues of socialism you would actually prefer the pragmatic values of a right leaning gov't with integrity. Are you saying that you recognize the impossibility of ever having a left wing gov't with integrity and are you acknowledging that there has never existed a left wing gov't with an aversion for lying when politically expedience dictated it? Are you accepting the truth that left wing elitism has been exposed? Cool
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 10:27 am
He's not accepting any of that. He's simply pointing out that a government based upon lies is hardly a democracy.

If we can't have an open democracy HERE, how can we expect to in Iraq?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 10:51 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
He's not accepting any of that. He's simply pointing out that a government based upon lies is hardly a democracy.

If we can't have an open democracy HERE, how can we expect to in Iraq?

Cycloptichorn


Of one thing I am certain-----Blatham does NOT need a dinosaur to fight his intellectual battles Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 11:05 am
Do you need one, then?

Quote:
blatham wrote:
perc

My argument in its entirety is that the use of 'full and complete' is simply a lie, and that it is a lie designed for home consumption.

I'd far rather have a right-leaning government that had integrity to the truth (say, as a government led by McCain would likely have) than a left-leaning government that lied about so much of importance as has this one.


Blatham old pal

I'm amazed by your brazen attempt in your first sentence to bludgeon me with an unsupported absolutism and then attempt to regain the moral high ground with simplistic quacking about preferring a right leaning gov't (with integrity) over a lying left leaning gov't.

Are you trying to tell me that after months of touting the virtues of socialism you would actually prefer the pragmatic values of a right leaning gov't with integrity. Are you saying that you recognize the impossibility of ever having a left wing gov't with integrity and are you acknowledging that there has never existed a left wing gov't with an aversion for lying when politically expedience dictated it? Are you accepting the truth that left wing elitism has been exposed?


You see, you didn't actually respond to anything he said. In your first paragraph you denigrated what he said instead of refuting what he said.

In your second paragraph, you start appealing to extremes instead of examining and responding to what he said.

Come back with a cohesive argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 11:10 am
Quote:
I'd far rather have a right-leaning government that had integrity to the truth (say, as a government led by McCain would likely have) than a left-leaning government that lied about so much of importance as has this one.

now see perc, that's not so hard to follow
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 11:40 am
perception wrote:
blatham wrote:
He said it again today, but sort of louder, saying ...'full and "complete" sovereignty on June 30'. Newscasters, some, are taking spokesmen/women to task on this point, but without the vigor they ought to. That's coming in the printed press mainly.


Blatham

The following is from a NYTimes article by Dexter Filkens and may explain why Bush is stating Soverignty the way he is:

Quote:
<Once it became clear that democratic elections could not be held this year, there was a consensus among the Shiite leadership, particularly the Grand Ayatolah al-Sinstani,the countries most powerful Shiite religious leader, that whoever made up the interim government should not exercise a lot of political authority. Sistani did not want the gov't signing treaties, passing laws or drawing up constitutions becaue they would not have any lasting legitimacy.>

Is it not possible that the Bush adminisltration accepted the reality that Sistani is so powerful that it would be futile to insist on any other course of action but this explanation would fit into their plans of not wanting to turn over "FULL" sovereignty in the strict sense of the term.

Now since you are a socialist elitist (keep the masses ignorant of our true aims because they are just that----ignorant of what is best for them) you would understand the smoke screen that you call lies. Could it be that you are incensed that the Bush administration is using tactics from the elite socialist play book? Cool Now of course you nor any self respecting liberal would ever think the Bush bunch of "incompetents" could ever be clever enout to use this as cover for what they wanted all along


This is my post that Blatham responded to with bludgeoning tactics instead of trying to refute my point that Sistani has attempted to dictate the structure and the time table but as it happens that fits with our interests as well so why not go along with it. Blatham calls it lies------I call it putting a pragmatic face on reality.

I think Sistani recognizes that everyone will lose if he calls for revolution and that if he bides his time he will eventually win. We are gambling that time is on our side as events unfold and that there are enough astute Iraqis who don't want an Islamic theocracy.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 11:48 am
Bludgeoning tactics Laughing -- none of that going on around here.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 11:55 am
I'm sure it is pragmatic to turn the authority over once the real elections have gone through in Jan.

But it is a lie to keep calling the turnover a 'free and soviergn gov't.' Because it isn't. Bush can say that as much as he likes, though, because most people are too stupid/apathetic to actually look into it, and he wins on sound bytes.

That's what we have a problem with.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 12:48 pm
Cyclops

Since it seems to be causing you so much distress that what Bush is saying is a lie, I think I might like to help perpetuate that myth. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 12:53 pm
Quote:
Since it seems to be causing you so much distress that what Bush is saying is a lie, I think I might like to help perpetuate that myth.


How juvenille. If you no longer wish to debate the point, at least don't resort to trolling....

You dropped all the points from the argument. Would you care to respond to one in an adult manner?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 04:44 pm
No need to jump to any conclusions just yet. We'll find out if the majority of Iraqis are going to "buy" into the new government effective on July 1. It's only one month away, and no matter how this admnistration tries to sell "full sovereignty," it's what's in the pie that matters.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:06 pm
In an interview on NPR with Pachachi, he said since they asked for our troops to stay that it was wrong for the Iraqi government to ask for control of the troops.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:13 pm
It's developing into a new form:

A Theodemoligarchy

Hmm, maybe it is just like ours.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:18 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
It's developing into a new form:

A Theodemoligarchy

Hmm, maybe it is just like ours.


It took me a while to say theodemoligarchy. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:32 pm
It was devised in satirical facitiousness but I was interested in hearing GWB pronounce it.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:40 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
It was devised in satirical facitiousness but I was interested in hearing GWB pronounce it.


Well, he did put 4 syllables in Ghraib.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:43 pm
Like ga-rah-e-bay?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:25 am
This piece really points to the issues involved...
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/politics/02DIPL.html?hp
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:39 am
damn, next thing you know the new Iraqi PM will visit the UN asking for full sovereignty and all this after we have declared the UN irrelevant. Iraq gets to have their own flag, what more could they want?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:45 am
An anthem...but you aren't helping.
0 Replies
 
 

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