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Is "compassionate conservatism" a slogan and nothing more?

 
 
dyslexia
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 10:54 pm
c.i. and kuvasz i dont happen to know off hand where this info might be available but perhaps an index showing taxes paid internationally by income level might be helpful. just from what i have seen in europe the wealty pay VERY heavy taxes but the rates go down significantly as income drops. but i really can't verify that.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:11 pm
California taxes are high, especially if you throw in all the hidden taxes. The infrastructure is very costly to run -- some of that is due to catering to the tourist who don't want to drive over a horde of pot holes on a run down the coast. That is only one example of and there's benefit in bringing money into the state. It is the fifth largest economy in the world and you won't find too many places more expensive to live. Lido Island in Newport Beach is one of the most expensive by the square foot per square foot in the world. Wages are very high in comparison to other states -- once one stops working, it could be the right time to move to a less costly state and not just because of taxes.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:22 pm
dys, You're getting closer to what is relevant to each tax payer. Trying to compare apples and oranges just doesn't cut the cake. I'd be more interested to find out what the 'gross' tax rates are by income levels - and what they get for paying their higher tax rates. c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:26 pm
One important issue is the "cost of living." Even in the US, that can vary a great deal, so income alone is a lost leader. Try buying a home in Silicon Valley today. Any decent 3BR, 2BA, home will cost about a half million. The property tax on a new purchase is much greater than one that has been lived in for many years. That alone changes the whole dynamics of taxation. c.i.
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mamajuana
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:36 pm
And taxes in other countries - what do they get in services in return? Most countries get some kind of medical care, pensions, and other helps. The percentage of what is paid in taxes should be balanced by what is had in return. The "get government out of my life" cry is quite often followed by complaints about rate of taxation.

If the rich want lower taxes, perhaps that could be balanced by no social security for those making over a certain income, no medicare, etc.
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mamajuana
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:52 pm
Lash - I spent many years in advertising, thinking up sound bites, writing sparkling copy, creating eye-catching visuals, placing all these goodies where they would catch the eye and attention of some passerby.

That's why I become somewhat cynical when it comes to what's put out there. Slogans is what we're talking about. Remember that Karl Rove and Roger Ailes both trained under Lee Atwater, who was very good at what he did, but that doesn't make it sincere or honest.

Now, when I add to that the years I spent working actively in politics in my spare time, it is hard for me to believe that a phrase like "cpmpassionate conservatism" is anything more than that - a phrase. Maybe if I can actually see a little compassionate conservatism in action, I'll feel differently.
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Lash Goth
 
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Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2003 11:54 pm
If the rich want lower taxes, perhaps that could be balanced by no social security for those making over a certain income, no medicare, etc.


mamajuana--Now, you're talking! It is beyond stupid to see wealthy people receiving Medicaid. I would LOVE to see the figures of how much money is spent on this for people, who don't need it.
I know of several wealthy oldsters who recieve this benefit.
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Lash Goth
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:00 am
mamajuana wrote:
Lash - I spent many years in advertising, thinking up sound bites, writing sparkling copy, creating eye-catching visuals, placing all these goodies where they would catch the eye and attention of some passerby.

That's why I become somewhat cynical when it comes to what's put out there. Slogans is what we're talking about. Remember that Karl Rove and Roger Ailes both trained under Lee Atwater, who was very good at what he did, but that doesn't make it sincere or honest.

Now, when I add to that the years I spent working actively in politics in my spare time, it is hard for me to believe that a phrase like "cpmpassionate conservatism" is anything more than that - a phrase. Maybe if I can actually see a little compassionate conservatism in action, I'll feel differently.


Lee was one good bad boy.
Then mamajuana, you understand why they chose Compassionate Conservatism.
If you were their PR person, seeing the perception of the party, wouldn't you have come up with a similar phrase-- (Understanding that content trumps catch phrases) Wasn't it well-chosen, considering the perception?
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mamajuana
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:15 am
Oh lash - Pr is different. You are paid to do different things. And a perception is how others perceive you.

In answer to your question - no. If content trumped catch phrases there would be more honesty, more truth. Yes, it was well-chosen. But it has nothing to do with any real or imagined content.

It is simply a phrase - nothing more. And they pay their professionals to do exactly what they're doing - to come up with catchy phrases. Some work, some don't. One of the reasons this one has come back into play is because of the doubt placed upon it having any meaning at all.

What say we drop this whole perception thing?
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Lash Goth
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:20 am
Of course.
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HumsTheBird
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 04:27 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
HTB,

That's not what I said, I didn't mean that the truly compassionate are not going to label themselves as such but that those devoid of what others would consider compassion often think they are compassionate.

"He's a cold calculating greedy bastid, I'm just rational and show tough love"

Often compassion isn't so much the issue as is policy. In the past the notion that the poor were entirely responsible for thir plight was considered sound, it has been debunked and now most people realize that the poor are partially but not always completly responsible for thir poverty. The old ratiocination might not have been lacking in compassion as much as simply being equivocal.



============================

Craven:

I said that I agreed with what you wrote earlier.

Then, I wrote content -- opinions -- of my own.

I never suggested that what I contributed as my own opinions, making a mention of agreeing with your earlier comments, were, in fact, something that you'd also said.

I did agree with what you wrote earlier.

Alright?

The labelling issue is wearing thin, on all sides. But, there is a preposterous amount of labelling lingoistics coming from the ever so wrong, "right," and many of us not in the Republican bent are long since decided that what they're actually doing is establishing one thing, by saying something else.

Whether it's intentional or some group think plan, who can say (I don't think it is, and have never considered such). But, it is the indication of the same social phenomenon that establishes and then carries forward, in all human societies, the phenomenon of making statements, based upon social "acceptability," that make no literal or actual sense within a language.

Many social movements today depend upon social recognition for their rewards -- "faith based" is a key example of same -- and from those/this movement(s), arise much social engineering.

Doesn't establish truth, morality or even "religious" behavior, just that it reinforces a group, or several or even many, groups and group established "norms."

The worst of those "norms" within several social groups of today is that there exists some "Liberal" something. And, that Republicans represent the "right" and "conservative" among society.

In my experience, the most egregious and exaggerated behaviors in today's society are the responsibility of the "conservative" group think. Which means, in fact, that they are the most "liberally" behaved and motivated.
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fishin
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 06:56 am
And here Hums, you say one thing and then follow it with a sizeable rant that that does the exact opposite. The "right" does no more or less labeling linguistics than the "left" does. You've been busy painting with a very broad brush which serves little purpose.
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fishin
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 07:00 am
mamajuana wrote:
If the rich want lower taxes, perhaps that could be balanced by no social security for those making over a certain income, no medicare, etc.


An excellent idea. I've wondered for some time why the AARP has fought this everytime it's come up. Bill Gates won't need a $1,400/month Social Security check (unless he manages to do something REALLY stupid..) and neither do other multi-millionaires. I can only guess that AARP fights it because they se it as an opening that may lead to further means testing for people to be able to collect.
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HumsTheBird
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 07:09 am
fishin' wrote:
And here Hums, you say one thing and then follow it with a sizeable rant that that does the exact opposite. The "right" does no more or less labeling linguistics than the "left" does. You've been busy painting with a very broad brush which serves little purpose.


==============

fishin:

That (^^) was and is no "rant." You just don't like my opinions, that's all.

But, go ahead, use whatever pejorative makes you feel secure. It doesn't bother me.
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HumsTheBird
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 07:12 am
Excuse Me? What's This That YOU Write?
fishin' wrote:
And here Hums, you say one thing and then follow it with a sizeable rant that that does the exact opposite. The "right" does no more or less labeling linguistics than the "left" does. You've been busy painting with a very broad brush which serves little purpose.


=============

Excuse me, here, fishin, but I didn't write anything to or about anyone on this site that was "rant"(ing) in nature or tone, but only complimentary, to any earlier comment.

It's your comments here about me that are personally offensive. I've written nothing to or about you or anyone that's personally attacking in nature. All I ever wrote was that I agreed with what Craven wrote earlier. And I shared my opinions about anyone -- right, left, whatever, blue, red, I don't care, it's irrelevant -- who pins a certain label on themselves for purposes of grandiosing their sense of "correctness" when compared with others.

Much as you're doing now, about me. Why?
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marvan
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 09:38 am
I think all this talk about compassionate conservatism is deceiving many Americans. Bush is compassionate towards the wealthiest Americans and reflects right wing ideology of survival of the fittest.Unfortunately there is little that can be done since it appears that we now have a one party system but learn how to survive in a dog eat dog system.
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HumsTheBird
 
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Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 10:29 am
I agree with that (^^), too, marvan.

Which is a compliment, by the way, that I agree with you.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:20 pm
He must be compassionate. He is trying to "Fix" social security, Medicare, the economy, support for religious charities. prescription drug plans, putting people to work stifle medical research. And he as accomplished giving a tax break to the rich and powerful. Now isn't that the height of compassion?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:28 pm
the "height of compassion" has reached a new low.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2003 12:41 pm
Someone who pays $3,000.00 in taxes and their savings on the tax cut (which will not only dissapear but increase when the minimum tax charts go into effect), gets a $450.00 break per annum or $1.23 a day -- enough to buy quart of bottled water. Wow -- now, as far as tax breaks being considered "compassionate" that's really extraordinary. Tax reduction is a placebo, not a panacea. What money the rich get back is enough to buy a car, as if they couldn't afford a few car. Do they really chuck it back into hiring more people and paying them more? Do they really put it back into the market and drive it up? Voodoo economics.
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