31
   

hello

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2014 05:29 pm
@Setanta,
I agree with most of your post (except for the last two sentences, which I don't understand). That freedom is equivalent to the absence of restraint on behavior is obvious. I also agree that life is unfair, and I'm not aware of any effective remedy for that. I do believe, however, that upward (and downward) economic mobility is a good deal greater in this country than your post implies.

I was addressing mostly some necessary characteristics of successful organizations and economic systems relative to human behavior.

All things considered, I'd rather live in Canada or the United States than Venezuela or Cuba.

0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2014 05:31 pm
The title and your theater contradict each other, Blat.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2014 05:35 pm
I cannot agree that there is significant "upward mobility" in the United Stares or in Canada. The overwhelming majority of corporate managers and officers continue to be white males from middle class or wealthy backgrounds. I would rather live here than in Venezuela or Cuba, too. (I see you have chosen your examples carefully.) But that others have it worse is not evidence that people here uniformly have it good. That's a specious argument. My last two sentences were a response to your comment about authoritarian and proscriptive governments. That was complete non sequitur. Once again, i made no appeal to any particular method to increase economic opportunity.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2014 05:40 pm
@georgeob1,
It's a 'reference' provided by UC Berkeley. Unless you're able to refute those references with your own credible sources, I'll rely on UC Berkeley over your personal opinion.

However, it's also Econ 101 that when demand increases, and the population has the wherewithal to increase consumption, everybody prospers. ergo, the City of San Francisco.

From thinkprogress.org.
Quote:
So far ten states have passed higher wages since January: Delaware to $8.25 an hour; West Virginia to $8.75; Rhode Island to $9; Michigan to $9.25; Minnesota to $9.50; Connecticut, Hawaii, and Maryland to $10.10; Vermont to $10.50; and Massachusetts to $11 an hour. They’re not alone: 22 states have wage floors above the federal minimum. The city of Seattle has gone even further, implementing a $15 wage.
While some warn that raising the minimum wage is a job killer, states that have taken action aren’t finding that to be true. Those whose wages increased on January 1 are experiencing faster job growth than the others. State minimum wage increases over the past two decades haven’t had an impact on job creation. Washington, which has the highest current minimum wage, experienced the biggest increase in small business jobs last year and has seen steady, above average job growth in the 15 years since it raised its wage.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2014 08:16 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I cannot agree that there is significant "upward mobility" in the United Stares or in Canada. The overwhelming majority of corporate managers and officers continue to be white males from middle class or wealthy backgrounds. I would rather live here than in Venezuela or Cuba, too. (I see you have chosen your examples carefully.) But that others have it worse is not evidence that people here uniformly have it good. That's a specious argument. My last two sentences were a response to your comment about authoritarian and proscriptive governments. That was complete non sequitur. Once again, i made no appeal to any particular method to increase economic opportunity.


I never suggested that uniform economic outcomes for people were either attainable or the proper objective of wise policy. On the contrary, I suggested that such efforts usually have many, usually unanticipated, bad side effects. Some inequity appears necessary to inspire people to strive for more and focus on areas where there is real need or demand.. That's why we keep score in ball games too. I believe economic mobility in North America is likely greater than in most of the world. I suspect that is one reason we are such an attractive destination for immigrants.I can tell you that in my company such mobility is very high (we get better people that way).

I agree that Cuba and Venezuela were easy and self-serving choices. However they are both self-proclaimed champions of economic equality and socialist "fair play", and, as well, opponents of the raw capitalism you appear too fault.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 02:05 am
@georgeob1,
OK, i'm getting rather tired of being viewed by you as a champion of socialism. As for "raw capitalism," that seems pretty meaningless to me. There has never been laissez-faire capitalism anywhere. I certainly do consider capitalists to be a form of criminal who should not be allowed out in polite society without minders. I consider that the biggest disaster for any nation would be to allow completely unregulated capitalism.

Quote:
I believe economic mobility in North America is likely greater than in most of the world.


Just as the idea that someone is worse off is not evidence that one is well off, so the claim that there is more economic mobility anywhere is not evidence that there's a lot--just more. If i've got five bucks and you've got six, neither one of is going to dine anywhere better than a fast food joint.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 08:15 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I appreciate that response, George.

Whether or not the capitalistic/free enterprise system will be quite the success you seem to think it to be...is still in question as far as I am concerned. It certainly is not the near certainty that some, perhaps you, seem to consider it.

Here in America...our system has been running with an incredible advantage...an entire continent rich in potential and resources to use. Food production has not been a problem...but that may well have less to do with the economic system in place than with the abundant land available for cultivation.

Ores and minerals and forests are here...and were here for exploitation in abundance also.

Whether a more tempered system than capitalism could have worked this into as much "wealth" as has happened under the system now in place (or more)...is still in question. Whether or not a more tempered system could have allowed the great wealth created to be more widely AND FAIRLY distributed also is still in question.

Labor, in my opinion, has been short changed in the equation. Land has nothing to gain. Capital and entrepreneurship seem to have harvested the bulk of the gains...and that mostly happens because of the ability, under our system, for the capital and entrepreneurship to EXPLOIT labor in the system now in place. (Only an opinion, and I respect the right of intelligent, well-intentioned people to differ with me on that).

As I said earlier...the system I think will have to come into being will more easily come from the socialistic side making accommodations with the capitalistic side...rather than the other way around. If I am correct, this will put countries like China in better position than we are in.

We will see. The next few decades will be very important...and both sides will be battling with the influences of the technological impact on the matter.

Who will fare better is by no means settled.



Interesting views. They appear to me to be reminiscent of some views that pwere prominent here and In Europe after the depression and before the collapse of the great socialist experiment in the Soviet Union. I believe subsequent history has amply demonstrated the illusions attendant to socialism and its repeated failure as an economic or social organizing principle.

In addition to the collapse of the Soviet System in Russia and Easter Europe we have seen a the first generation of post colonial leaders waste a generation in managed economies that produced only corruption, bureaucracy and mismanagement. Most of that has now been swept away, though the corruption remains in many areas, but development is accelerating now under more capitalistic systems. Even the Swedes elected a conservative (for them) government a decade ago which has worked effectively to restore individual initiative and responsibility to their economy and correct the creeping inefficiencies of government-operated systems.

It seems to me that the chief historical lesson of the late unlamented 20th century was the complete failure of authoritarian Socialism and Marxism. Despite that we do see a resurgence of these old illusions: you are not alone.

Inequality as measured by the statistical distributions of incomes has increased fairly fast in the past seven years. That is largely the effect of an unusually slow economic recovery from an otherwise fairly ordinary but sudden recession. A very good case can be made for the proposition that it is precisely the intrusive restraints imposed by the unanticipated effects of exploding government regulation of economic activity is what has slowed the creation of high-paying jobs for the much touted middle class. We're not going to solve this problem by mandating a raise for entry level workers in Burger King.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 09:17 am
@georgeob1,
Thank you for the response, George.

My main disagreement with you centers around the comment you made that prompted my initial entry into this discussion.


Quote:
In essence my proposition is that over time "solutions" based on individual freedom, choice and action, almost always achieve better results than those designed by some ambitious and even well-intentioned rule maker, and that the reasons for this are found in the nature of human beings.


I saw this...and continue to see it...as a gratuitous and unsubstantiated slogan...rather than a reflection of a truth that has been established.

Many "solutions" to world problems that have existed over the years...have come from very ambitious rule makers...despots, tyrants, and oligarchies.
Fact is, those conditions and referents have prevailed on planet Earth much, much, much more than this "individual freedom, choice and action" you are supposing ALWAYS achieve much better results.

I cannot even think of a way logically to assess which works better...so I am dumbfounded that you assert it (the elements of your proposition) to be "better" than the alternatives...and thunderstruck that you consider it to something explained by human nature, when that sort of thing has been such an infinitesimally small part of the human experience in recorded history.

I think a much better (and more logical) case can be made that humans WANT (perhaps demand might be a better word) that they be ruled and lead rather than depend on individual initiative to succeed in this world. The people who do not feel this way...become the rulers and leaders.

In any case, my guess is that capitalism (as practiced in the United States) will be seen by future historians as a huge failure...a failure that will dwarf what you perceive to be the great socialistic failures of the Soviet Union and China.

But...we shall see...or at least, the people who follow us shall see.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 12:18 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
Quote:
The title and your theater contradict each other, Blat.

Oh goodness. Then permit me to correct everything that has gone astray and tell you "goodbye".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 12:50 pm
@georgeob1,
Sorry, been busy. Lots of discussion, I see. Don't really have time right now for much but...
Quote:
I believe that progressives too often fail to acknowledge the degree to which autonomy and local rule must be sacrificed to apply their “solutions” , and fail as well to foresee or deal with the side effects they bring with the human nature they cannot change.

Jon Chait recently wrote a very good piece on how Ferguson demonstrates that the worst governments are commonly local http://nym.ag/1oY5JiU Or at the state level, we know by polling that 46% of Mississippi Republicans desire that interracial marriage be made illegal http://bit.ly/1cQUbrz (This surprised me as I thought it would be 44% tops).

As to "side effects", that's a benign or irrelevant point here as side effects (or unintended consequences) attend any decision or action. You might argue that a "conservative" approach - using "tried and true" schemes - is more likely to avoid such effects. Yet on the other hand, it will obviously be the more resilient or unfixed schemes that are going to be more likely to recognize and admit when things have gone awry. Again, we'd have to look to specifics.

You bring up Russia again. You need to stop doing that or I'll start hitting you over the head with Guatemala and Pinochet/Friedman in Chile and Noriega in Panama and Marcos and all the other instances where "free enterprise" and murderous state terror have been happy companions (including ethnic cleansing as in Guatemala) or those instances where Ayn Rand's statements can be over-layed on Hilter's statements with little divergence.

Quote:
Many (not all) religions recognize these elementary traits of human nature – they’re about influencing human behavior, not controlling it


This distinction is semantic more than real. Punishment where your body is burning forever isn't some hint as to preferred behaviors and values. Closing down womens' options re birth control or termination of a pregnancy - presently the goal of legislation in almost every state where Republicans wield power - is a blatant attempt to control. etc
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 12:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You know I am not up to this ****.

You also know you are.

Any chance you can stop trying to borrow wives or daughters...and expressing anxiety over ex-wives brassieres...

...and make the argument I am too lazy (and intellectually ill-equipped) to do?

Been busy, still am. Sorry. But I can't do serious all the time anyway. Just like your average penis, I need to self-actualize.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 01:08 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Jesus, i get tired of that "freedom" BS.


Me too. This axiomatic presumption that the modern right alone is the territory of freedom is a really amazing phenomenon. How pervasive this notion is in that community is really interesting in terms of the broad acceptance of the myth. It's repeated constantly in their media and by spokespersons, of course, but there's clearly something else going on - some match between culture and myth. It doesn't hurt that "freedom" is defined in terms that are most agreeable to unfettered profit-taking.

Hard to discern how George has inhaled this stuff so deeply. He's made no reference to Hayek or Rand (I've left the door open for him). It's always struck me as comically odd that the freedom-lovers take so many of their cues from Austrian and Russian tyranny-faciliators.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 01:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It's a 'reference' provided by UC Berkeley. Unless you're able to refute those references with your own credible sources, I'll rely on UC Berkeley over your personal opinion.


The effects of raising the minimum wage is one of those areas which are relatively easy to quantify and measure. Lots of study done on this. And yes, it sure as hell trumps opinion.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 01:22 pm
ps to Frank
Don't denigrate yourself. You're doing fine.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 01:23 pm
ps to George
Go ahead and denigrate yourself.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 02:46 pm
One last thing for now. You folks will recall Ed Meese. Though rarely getting press presently, he actually remains a serious conservative movement activist with Heritage and the Federalist Society. His gig revolves around building up the conservative judiciary, particularly. He came to my attention a while ago as one of the key figures meeting and organizing to strategize how to curtail and impede the Obama administration on the very evening Obama was inaugerated. I've had a google news alert on the guy for the last year.

This link is to a short interview promo by Heritage. Meese's contention here (it's a contemporary PR narrative by the GOP) is that the Obama administration is the most lawless in US history. http://dailysign.al/1sdIdny Listen to it if you like but there's nothing in what he says that you haven't heard before, many times.

The thing is, of course, that Meese was the AG during the Iran/Contra period and that he resigned when he came under investigation for his complicity in that mess of illegality and lying to Congress. You might wonder how people get this ******* stupid and I don't know.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 07:20 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

This link is to a short interview promo by Heritage. Meese's contention here (it's a contemporary PR narrative by the GOP) is that the Obama administration is the most lawless in US history. http://dailysign.al/1sdIdny Listen to it if you like but there's nothing in what he says that you haven't heard before, many times.

The thing is, of course, that Meese was the AG during the Iran/Contra period and that he resigned when he came under investigation for his complicity in that mess of illegality and lying to Congress. You might wonder how people get this ******* stupid and I don't know.


I think we inhabit different planets, or at least select data differently from the stream of stuff going by. From the use of "fines" levied administratively on banks under the Dodd Frank law to fund Democrat activist groups, to the shenanigans of the IRS in attempting to subvert the decisions of the Supreme court and the selectivity of the Justice Department in choosing what to investigate and what to stonewall Iit makes Alberto Gonzales' capers look trivial), I believe this administration has outdone Nixon by miles. The difference is that Nixon had a largely hostile media reporting his actions and Obama has a bunch of claques reporting on his. Only lately, after an overly long series of stupidities by the President, has our media begun waking up to the fact that its beloved "constitutional Law Professor "(i.e. adjunct Instructor) and emperor got no clothes.

Iran Contra was peanuts compared to the IRS capers. We used enemy #1 's
s money to fund action against enemy #2. Sounds like a good idea to me. We sold Iran obsolete Phoenix missiles for use as air-to-air weapons on the F-14s the Shah had purchased earlier, through an Israeli broker, at grossly inflated prices and used the proceeds to fund the Contras. The missiles involved could never have been used against us as we had the ability to detonate their warheads remotely.

How ******* stupid does one have to be to believe the constantly changing stories, stonewalling and denial coming out of the IRS?
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2014 09:35 pm
@georgeob1,
Oh, I love that reply. "There's just no talkin' to 'em".

Look, george. We're just going to have a dance-off, you and I. We'll get ten women seated comfortably with a scotch and a reefer and we'll each in turn, put on the song of our choice, and then dance.

There'll be a vote. Whomever those women, by majority, decide is the better dancer, wins it all.

chicken chicken chicken chicken



McTag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2014 12:17 am
@georgeob1,

Quote:
Iran Contra was peanuts compared to the IRS capers. We used enemy #1 's
s money to fund action against enemy #2. Sounds like a good idea to me. We sold Iran obsolete Phoenix missiles for use as air-to-air weapons on the F-14s the Shah had purchased earlier, through an Israeli broker, at grossly inflated prices and used the proceeds to fund the Contras. The missiles involved could never have been used against us as we had the ability to detonate their warheads remotely.


Is there anybody who is pleased about this?
I remarked earlier that of the present foment in Iraq and surrounding region, with hundreds of thousands of people displaced and tens of thousands of civilians killed, none of the weaponry being used was manufactured there.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2014 10:14 am
@blatham,
It appears you aren't amenable to a discussion on any of these matters. That's your call and is certainly OK with me. However, in these circumstances, you shouldn't pretend you are willing or able to do so i
0 Replies
 
 

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