25
   

Israel's Reality

 
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 04:54 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
1000+ dead Palestinians, most of whom are civilians, and you don't give a ****. What's there to question?
Hi Izzy, I find this sort of thing is relevant to the persons association with it. For example:
- do you, or anyone here, give a **** about the genocide occurring in West Papua (it has been an occupied 'country' for 40 odd years)
- did you care about the genocide that occurred in East Timor?
- What about the attrocities occuring in Sudan?
- What about the Russian inspired civil war in the Ukraine? (or, it's invasion of Georgia... and which other country?)
When there's separation from the issue - then people's degree of 'caring' wanes, often allowing them to look at all sides of an issue.

I would also compare it to all the people in your city - who you don't know...do you really care about them? Wouldn't the honest answer be 'not until you meet them personally, or they have a direct or indirect impact on you (indirect examples:through a news story, or just on TV)'. To most people, they are just strangers....and the further you remove someone from a person , the less 'personal' it becomes.

As another example, if we now remove people from an event in time - what do you feel about the conquest of the Mongols?

The point is - you can be the most helpful, kindest, caring person to people you know...and not feel the same about:
- a historical act
- an act on the other side of the world
- something that happened to a complete stranger
...the degree of removal affects everyone - just to different degrees. It doesn't make them any less human.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 05:47 pm
@vikorr,
The difference is the attitude of my government which condemned those atrocities. With Israel our governments are complicit.

They can't do anything about the Mongol hordes, they can do something about Gaza. Allowing Gaza to fester also gives the green light to what's going on in Sudan and Ukraine.


It's possible to care about the fates of those you've not met. There's been a lot of activity commemorating WW1, and some of the letters sent from the trenches are very moving.

I'm not particularly interested in your idea of what constitutes an honest answer either.

vikorr
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 05:56 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The difference is the attitude of my government which condemned those atrocities. With Israel our governments are complicit.
Your comment was of a personal nature to Finn...not about governments. It was the personal nature of your comment that I was commenting on.

What I was talking about was so very obvious, so why the diversion?

Quote:
It's possible to care about the fates of those you've not met. There's been a lot of activity commemorating WW1, and some of the letters sent from the trenches are very moving.
Yes - a recent historical event, involving their country, with many people who are still living had relatives involved in, and which still receives much TV coverage, and there are many visible memorials <graves, war museums, books, movies, documentaries etc>...that is a fair list of personal attachments? - hence many (but not all) commemorate it. There was a reason I chose the Mongol invasion, which is removed drastically time, and for most, also in geography. Your example supports my point.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 05:58 pm
@vikorr,
Well Finn has made some very personal comments about my children and my late wife, but I'm not allowed to say anything back to him.

vikorr
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 06:01 pm
@izzythepush,
You are.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 06:03 pm
@vikorr,
Well butt out of it then.


One difference between me and Finn is I'm not beating the drum for the killers in Sudan and Ukraine.
vikorr
 
  1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 06:09 pm
@izzythepush,
I sent you a PM
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 07:15 pm
@Eliusa,
Eliusa wrote:
If I might ask. Israel had been there for 50-60 years now? So how come?

Because it's their ancient homeland.


Eliusa wrote:
Have they invaded territory and with their might no one could get them out for so long?

It is certainly true that no one is going to dislodge Israel by force. But Israel was the legitimate owner of that territory to begin with.

More to the point, Israel has been willing to hand over a large chunk of that territory in exchange for peace. The problem is, the Palestinians have no interest in peace.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 07:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I think they are prepared to make such concessions, largely because I think the settlements (or at least their expansion) have all along been intended as an eventual bargaining chip.

Yes and no.

It is true that Israel is willing to withdraw settlements from any land that they give up in exchange for peace. But if it turns out that this peace never happens, Israel intends to use that land for themselves.

The settlements were designed to serve in the case of either outcome.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
There has already been an indication that Abbas is willing to accept the settlements in East Jerusalem (although he denied this immediately after it was leaked) but he will not and should not do the same as respects the entirety of the West Bank settlements.

You're probably referring to land swaps here, where the Palestinians give up part of the West Bank in exchange for being given land on the Israeli side of the 1967 border.

A large majority of the settlers are really close to the 1967 border, and can be brought into Israel with only minor land swaps.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Golan was territory seized from Syria during the 6 Day War and while there is an unresolved dispute as to whether the war was started by Israel as a means to extend its borders (and possibly divert domestic attention away from a faltering economy) or was begun by preemptively by Israel,

The 1967 war was begun by Arab aggressors.

Israel did defend themselves preemptively, but that does not mean they started the war.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 07:29 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
The Israeli military can win the battles, but peace and quiet for the citizens of Israel will only be achieved through political compromise.

There's a problem here. Israel has just tried to achieve peace through political compromise for a couple of decades, and the Palestinians have no intention of ever reaching a political compromise.

Israel has to solve this militarily because there is no other option left.


Quote:
demands to stop the operation or mere expressions of empathy about the deaths of women and children in Gaza are perceived as a betrayal against flag and country.

Well, yes.

A demand that Israel stop defending themselves?

An expression of sympathy for an anti-Semitic false accusation?

Seriously?

Yes, those are indeed betrayals.


Quote:
all of whom were vilified in hateful and menacing ways when they publicly expressed dismay about the deaths of Palestinian children?

It would seem like an Israeli would understand why other Israelis would object to people giving credence to anti-Semitic false accusations.


Quote:
It’s an awful thing to make a truly tragic mistake, one that costs many lives. It’s worse to make that same mistake over and over again. Four operations in Gaza, an immense number of Israeli and Palestinian hearts that have stopped beating, and we keep ending up in the same place.

Let the IDF win this time then.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sat 26 Jul, 2014 07:31 pm
@Eliusa,
Eliusa wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance. What are they doing in Africa?

Mostly they are massacring non-Muslims, kidnapping schoolgirls and selling them into slavery, and slaughtering medical workers who give out vaccines.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 12:42 am
From Wiki.

Quote:
The war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise strikes against Egyptian air-fields after the mobilisation of Egyptian forces on the Israeli border.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Israel, as always, was the aggressor.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 02:42 am
@buttflake,
buttflake wrote:

Quote:
One of the biggest fall outs of the intellectual decay and moral cowardness that has afflicted the western world in modern times is the increasing number of intellectuals who are no longer willing to speak truthfully on an ever expanding number of issues for a variety of very disquieting reasons. When it comes to issues dealing with religion, or more specifically Islam, many of these intellectuals will do their utmost to try and convince the general population that those who carry out Islamic acts of aggression and terror in the west are simply misinterpreting their religion and that they are merely extremists bringing their faith into disrepute. In fact this need to constantly exonerate an ideology which is almost alone in producing terrorists today has become such a common occurrence that one can almost describe it as a systematic pattern, just as A comes before B and night follows day, the excuses follow every single act of Islamic terror. In fact it has gone so far that people in the west are expecting to be presented with such feeble excuses in the aftermath of Islamic barbarity.


Our and Israels reality.
Quote:

When examining the evidence out there that are available to us, such as Muslim’s reluctance to reform their own religion, their reactions to anyone who even hint about such actions, the way Muslim majority countries are being run, the way they react whenever someone offended their religion and the way non-Muslims are being treated in these countries, it is not unreasonable to conclude that Islamic terrorists are not misinterpreting the Koran, nor are they misrepresenting their religion whenever they are carrying out terrorists attacks. They are in fact following their religion to the letter. This is a fact that needs to be relentlessly pointed out in the west and we need to do away with the standard mantra coming from liberal western intellectuals whenever Islamic terrorist attacks occur. The first step towards defeating Islamic terrorism is to realize that it is in fact Islamic terrorism and not simply terrorist acts incorrectly attributed to Islam.


http://someofmyessays.blogspot.com/




You do realize how much this sounds like Nazis talking about how the rest of the world refuses to see Jews as the menace they did...don't you?

Or does your hatred make that invisible to you?
Olivier5
 
  2  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:23 am
@buttflake,
Quote:
Islams sold those slaves to Europeans

That's a lie. 'Christianities' and 'Judaisms' captured / bought slaves primarily from Africa's western coast: the Gulf of Guinea, central Africa and Congo. The Arab slave trade was most active on the eastern coast of Africa, in what are now Somalia, Kenya and Tanzania.

buttflake
 
  0  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:28 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
That's a lie. 'Christianities' and 'Judaisms' captured / bought slaves primarily from Africa's western coast:


Let's see some proof and, more importantly numbers. Islams total will make the Europeans look like amateurs.
buttflake
 
  0  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You do realize how much this sounds like Nazis


Do you?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:33 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's pretty clear that Israel with have to make significant concessions regarding the settlements if there is to be a final resolution of this conflict.

You're dreaming. The Israelis will never give back the West Bank. They have invested way too much to leave now, and depend on the Jordan / Sea of Galilee aquifers.

Either they kill / displace all Palestinians, or they learn to live with them... There's no other choice now. The colons have achieved total control the state; and they are not giving it up...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:37 am
@buttflake,
How about you read some SERIOUS history book, punk?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:40 am
@buttflake,
buttflake wrote:

Quote:
You do realize how much this sounds like Nazis


Do you?


Yes, I do.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2014 11:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
And he's daft enough to believe that people still think H2OMan, ColdJoint and Buttflake are separate entities. He's very good at fooling himself, but not anyone else.
 

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