24
   

Israel's Reality

 
 
woiyo
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
When Isreal was created after WW2, the land was not "arbitrarily" carved out. There was thousands of years of history that went into the decision to carve out that land for a Jewish State. The spoils of war always "carved out" new lands and this is another example. So really hte only 2 questions today is:

1) Why can't the "Palestinians" co exist in that State?
2) Why was a Jewish State created initially. Where it is, is irrelevant. Anywhere the State was created would have meant "taking it from someone else".

Seems to me , you do not want a Jewish State at all. Which is a valid argument.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 07:36 am
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Cabinet-ministers-IDF-may-have-to-reconquer-all-or-part-of-Gaza-to-ensure-security-368173

Quote:
Security Cabinet members said Thursday that the IDF may need to re-conquer all or part of Gaza to ensure Hamas does not continue to attack Israel.

Communications Minister Gilad Erdan said during a visit to Ashkelon Monday that the IDF must continue fighting until it ensures long-term calm.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Monday that the IDF will call up reservists and continue fighting until quiet is returned.

Overnight Sunday, more forces entered Gaza to find terrorist tunnels in new areas of the Strip, Ya'alon told MKs, saying it is unfortunate that Hamas terrorists harmed IDF soldiers.

"We are prepared to continue the operation as long as necessary, and, if necessary, to enlist more combat forces from the reserves until we bring quiet to the Gaza Strip," Ya'alon stated.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 09:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Cabinet-ministers-IDF-may-have-to-reconquer-all-or-part-of-Gaza-to-ensure-security-368173

Quote:
Security Cabinet members said Thursday that the IDF may need to re-conquer all or part of Gaza to ensure Hamas does not continue to attack Israel.

Communications Minister Gilad Erdan said during a visit to Ashkelon Monday that the IDF must continue fighting until it ensures long-term calm.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Monday that the IDF will call up reservists and continue fighting until quiet is returned.

Overnight Sunday, more forces entered Gaza to find terrorist tunnels in new areas of the Strip, Ya'alon told MKs, saying it is unfortunate that Hamas terrorists harmed IDF soldiers.

"We are prepared to continue the operation as long as necessary, and, if necessary, to enlist more combat forces from the reserves until we bring quiet to the Gaza Strip," Ya'alon stated.



A cessation of hostilities will be forced on Israel, before their job is done, to prevent future problems. The anti-Semites must be appeased, or they could vent their emotions on other minorities, in my opinion. It's called sublimation. Hell hath no fury like an anti-Semite scorned. Or, was that plagiarised from something about women scorned? Might be similar in hissy fit mindset?
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 09:44 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
A cessation of hostilities will be forced on Israel, before their job is done, to prevent future problems. The anti-Semites must be appeased, or they could vent their emotions on other minorities, in my opinion.

No one is in any position to force Israel to do anything that it doesn't want to do.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 09:57 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Foofie wrote:
A cessation of hostilities will be forced on Israel, before their job is done, to prevent future problems. The anti-Semites must be appeased, or they could vent their emotions on other minorities, in my opinion.

No one is in any position to force Israel to do anything that it doesn't want to do.


Learn how the world works, boychick.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 10:05 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Netanyahu thinks he might yet fix the problem by totally breaking Hamas and there's a slim chance that might work,


could work, but what would take its place would be worse for Israel.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 10:43 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

could work, but what would take its place would be worse for Israel.


That is one school of thought, but it seems to me that the lawlessness into which a Hamas free Gaza might descend (and a very short fall it would be) can be addressed by allowing Abbas and Fatah to assume control. This is likely to be what would happen in any case, but Israel could assist it in a way, I'm sure, that would not implicate Abbas as having been in cahoots with them all along.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 11:28 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
No one is in any position to force Israel to do anything that it doesn't want to do.


That goes without saying. When you are supported by the most powerful terrorist state on the planet, it's a given.

But that same powerful terrorist state supported South Africa too.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 12:17 pm
@woiyo,
woiyo wrote:

When Isreal was created after WW2, the land was not "arbitrarily" carved out. There was thousands of years of history that went into the decision to carve out that land for a Jewish State. The spoils of war always "carved out" new lands and this is another example. So really hte only 2 questions today is:

1) Why can't the "Palestinians" co exist in that State?
2) Why was a Jewish State created initially. Where it is, is irrelevant. Anywhere the State was created would have meant "taking it from someone else".

Seems to me , you do not want a Jewish State at all. Which is a valid argument.


More accurately, religious mythology was used in carving out that land for a "Jewish" state. Religious mythology is also used in determining who has rights to that land.

To answer your questions, that state is predicated on the idea that that state is "for the Jews." It really isn't that the Palestinians can't co-exist with that state what with that state denying them their rights in order to maintain a Jewish majority therein.

A Jewish state was created after the end of the wars of 1948 when the Zionists managed to ethnically cleans the areas that came under their control of most of their Arab inhabitants resulting in a "manageable minority" thereof.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 02:32 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
Gee !!!! 60,000,000 protestants in a country of 300,000,000 people run the country. More foofie revisionist history? And quite a number of the remaining 240,000,000 believe in Christs second coming.
It's more than that, actually. When WWII ended, there was much sympathy towards the plight of the Jews, compounded with the impetus of the Balfour Declaration, to make the second exodus seem reasonable to some. And, yes, Anglo American support was deeply rooted in the spurious assumption that natural Jews must inhabit Jerusalem for the end times to come.

It would be comic, were it not for the slaughter.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 03:31 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

RABEL222 wrote:
Gee !!!! 60,000,000 protestants in a country of 300,000,000 people run the country. More foofie revisionist history? And quite a number of the remaining 240,000,000 believe in Christs second coming.
It's more than that, actually. When WWII ended, there was much sympathy towards the plight of the Jews, compounded with the impetus of the Balfour Declaration, to make the second exodus seem reasonable to some. And, yes, Anglo American support was deeply rooted in the spurious assumption that natural Jews must inhabit Jerusalem for the end times to come.

It would be comic, were it not for the slaughter.

What are "natural Jews"? I've never heard of the term.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 04:01 pm
@woiyo,
woiyo wrote:
There was thousands of years of history that went into the decision to carve out that land for a Jewish State.


Not recently. There were revolts in Palestine in 70 CE and 135 CE. After the revolt in 70 CE, many Jews were sold into slavery. After the 135 CE revolt, Hadrian all but destroyed Jerusalem (the temple had already been destroyed) and forbad Jews to live in the new city. The province of Iudaea was abolished, and the region was renamed Syria-Palestina. Even at that time, most Jews were living outside of Iudaea. With the 135 CE revolt, many more Jews were sold into slavery (a common practice of the Romans to deal with rebellious subjects), and many more simply left to join Jews in the already existent diaspora. Alexandria, for example, yielded a temple tax (specific to Jews) which suggests that there were as many as a million Jews living there.

In the 19th century, Zionists began agitating for a homeland. The Brits wanted to settle them in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) or Uganda, but they insisted on moving to Palestine, where the Brits had (then) no authority. So it was not a Jewish homeland for about 1700 years. Just how long is their claim supposed to have been valid? The Zionists never wanted to settle any where other than Palestine.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 04:07 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
What are "natural Jews"? I've never heard of the term.
Those that claimed Jewish ancestry. I thought the term would be self evident.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 05:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
My Lord!!! Your 78. I Just had my 39th birthday plus 40 additional years of experience.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 05:35 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

My Lord!!! Your 78. I Just had my 39th birthday plus 40 additional years of experience.


I am not seventy-eight. I am fifty twenty-eight! Wink

And I do not feel a year more than fifty twenty-six or so.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I just had a doctors appointment. He said I was in perfect health for a man of 99 years. I think he was trying to make a point but like many on this foram I let facts I dont like go over my head. Its easier than facing the truth.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:27 pm
@woiyo,
woiyo wrote:
Seems to me , you do not want a Jewish State at all. Which is a valid argument.

Israel has the right to fire atomic warheads into the population centers of any nation that tries to force them to not be a Jewish state.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:28 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Foofie wrote:
A cessation of hostilities will be forced on Israel, before their job is done, to prevent future problems. The anti-Semites must be appeased, or they could vent their emotions on other minorities, in my opinion.

No one is in any position to force Israel to do anything that it doesn't want to do.

Learn how the world works, boychick.

In my experience, Israel does whatever they feel is necessary to defend themselves no matter who objects and no matter how loudly they object.

That said, Israel has already demonstrated willingness to stop the fighting so long as the rockets also stop, and I don't expect that has changed. If there were another peace offer similar to the one Hamas recently rejected, I expect that Israel would still sign up willingly.

But I don't expect that any move to force something on Israel will meet with any success.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:29 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
More accurately, religious mythology was used in carving out that land for a "Jewish" state. Religious mythology is also used in determining who has rights to that land.

The Jewish claim to the land is based on science and history.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:30 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
So it was not a Jewish homeland for about 1700 years. Just how long is their claim supposed to have been valid? The Zionists never wanted to settle any where other than Palestine.

The Jews' claim to their homeland is valid forever.
 

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