Hey, is the Men's Rights Movement (MRM) "hateful"?

Thu 10 Jul, 2014 01:19 am
I view this thread as a product of what has already happened to you. It is because of your previous experiences here that you have started this thread.

And that's incorrect. Read my words. This thread is about why the men's rights movement is being deemed "hateful" and being derided when it's focus is to better the lives of men.

So far no one has been able explain why it's viewed in such a way.

Instead this thread has been tagged "Sexist" and "Misogynistic" without the pussys who've tagged it as such explaining their reasoning why they think speaking up for men's issues is quote unquote "Misogynistic" or "Sexist".

Can you imagine the backlash if the genders in this situation were reversed?
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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 03:04 am
The world is extremely hostile and unsympathetic towards men.

And yet the vast majority of hard work and innovation in society is done by men.

Being a man appears to be a no-win lot in life. Society seems to only demonize masculine tendencies, yet also shames men who have problems that are out of their control; who won't just "shut up and be a man".

Men are scapegoats for all of society's hatred. Men can't win for losing...
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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:07 am
as a man, methinks thou doth protest too much

way too much
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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:09 am
Orange Is the New Black's Irresponsible Portrayal of Men

The victims of the prison system the Netflix show satirizes are overwhelmingly male. Leaving them out reinforces old stereotypes that hurt both genders.

Orange Is the New Black has been justly praised for its representation of groups who are often either marginalized or completely invisible in most mainstream media. The show has prominent, complex roles for black women, Latinas, lesbian and bisexual women, and perhaps the first major role for a trans woman played by a trans woman, the wonderful Laverne Cox. There remains, however, one important group that the show barely, and inadequately, represents.

That group is men.

This may seem like a silly complaint. Men, after all, are amply represented in the media, in major and minor roles, whether on Game of Thrones or Mad Men or Breaking Bad or The Wire. For that matter, there are in fact a number of male characters on OITNB, such as counselor Sam Healey (Michael Harney) who gets a typical guy-plot about struggling against disillusionment and prejudice to be a good man. Why should OITNB, unique in being devoted to women, bother with more men?

The reason: While media is full of men, real-life prisons are even more so. Men are incarcerated at more than 10 times the rate of women. In 2012, there were 109,000 women in prison. That's a high number—but it's dwarfed by a male prison population that in 2012 reached just over 1,462,000. In 2011, men made up about 93 percent of prisoners.

Of course, Orange is the New Black is under no obligation to accurately represent prison demographics, and just because they're a minority in prison doesn't mean that women's stories there aren't important. The problem is that the ways in which OITNB focuses on women rather than men seem to be linked to stereotypically gendered ideas about who can be a victim and who can't.

The few male prisoners who are shown on OITNB are presented in almost aggressively stereotypical ways. Early in the second season, when Piper (Taylor Schilling) is being moved to Chicago to testify in a drug trial, we're shown a number of male inmates being transported as well. They are presented as a threatening, uniform mass. The one prisoner who is given a more substantial role is a black man who makes frightening sexual verbal advances towards Piper; he's a contract killer and refers to himself, apparently without irony, as a "super-predator." He eventually delivers a message for Piper in exchange for her dirty panties. The one male prisoner we meet, then, is violent and abusive, with a sexual kink that is presented as laughable and repulsive. He deviant, dangerous, and the show seems to think that he is exactly where he belong—behind bars.

Female prisoners on the show are treated very differently. They may be violent and may be queer, but they are, for the most part, presented as sympathetic. This seems like a feminist move, on the surface. But the inability to extend that sympathy to male inmates, raises a disturbing possibility: that the show is condescending to women while reinforcing old and destructive attitudes about men.

Adam Jones argues in his book Gender Inclusive that empathy for victims is often, in our culture, dependent on the victim being a woman. As he says, "We live in a culture that is trained to view the violent victimization of women as a much more serious offense than the violent victimization of men."

Jones includes a wide range of supportive evidence. Male victims of domestic violence are almost entirely ignored, though domestic violence is perpetrated by men and women at about equal rates (though, Jones points out, violence by men is disproportionately more serious because of strength and weight difference.) In Bosnia, human-rights organizations focused on the (horrible, important) suffering of women rape victims and refugees, while largely ignoring the mass, gender-targeted killing of "battle-age" men. Similarly, violent attacks on women receive much more media attention than violent attacks on men, though men are substantially more likely to be attacked.

In other words, male victimization is seen as natural, or not worth commenting on. As a result, Jones argues, it is difficult to see that, "the most severe and institutionalized human rights abuses in the United States are overwhelmingly inflicted upon men, especially—though far from exclusively—younger, poorer, and minority men."

I don't know that I agree that men are the victims of the worst human rights abuses in this country, nor am I sure that ranking abuses in that way is helpful. But I think Jones is absolutely right that part of the reason we see our violent, abusive prison system as acceptable is because we have trouble seeing violence against young, black men as violence. That's why, Jones argues, men are 17 percent more likely to be put in prison than women for similar crimes, and serve an additional year in prison when they are incarcerated.

According to Orange Is the New Black, though, men in prison are "super-predators" while women in prison are, often, innocent victims, doomed by circumstances and their own painful but touching character flaws. OITNB underlines this most clearly in its flashbacks, where we see each inmate’s life-story as a tragic melodrama (a significantly gendered genre) leading to prison.

Though there are a couple of exceptions (like cancer-victim Rosa, a former bank-robbing adrenaline junkie, or sociopathic new villain Vee (Lorraine Toussaint)) for the most part the characters land behind bars because of a tragic lack of love. Taystee (Danielle Brooks) is a foster-child who craves a mother; Suzanne (Uzo Aduba) is a black adoptee of a white family hungry for affection and acceptance; Morello (Yael Stone) is a stalker fixated on romantic love; even Sister Ingalls (Beth Fowler), the nun, has a story framed around her failure to connect with Jesus in her heart. The backstories don't really focus on systemic injustices. Instead, they show how individual weaknesses lead the women to prison. A woman in OITNB goes to the bad when her impulse for love is thwarted.

In contrast, a former prisoner reviewing the series at the Washington City Paper said, "I get the need for drama and stories, but if the lady who runs this show wanted to be realistic, most of these flashbacks would be about 8 seconds long." She adds:

I mean that a lot of the girls I knew in prison were in there for really uncomplicated and undramatic reasons. Like, an accurate flashback scene would be a black girl sitting on the couch watching TV, and her boyfriend...says “Hey, baby, do you mind if I leave this **** here for my cousin to pick up?” And she says “OK,” without even looking up from QVC. And then, boom, cut to her serving 10 years.

The prison pipeline is routine—and, just as significantly, it's a routine involving, and closely connected, to men.

As Yasmin Nair points out, heroin in OITNB is presented as some sort of absolute, corrupting, verboten evil—precisely the attitude that has created our decades-old incarceration binge. Minority, marginalized men, often deliberately segregated and barred from most employment, turn to the drug trade. The state typically uses moral panic around drug use as an opportunity to police, harass, and imprison them.

Occasionally, women—especially minority women—end up getting caught in the gears too. That doesn't make for a dramatic, personal story about victimized individuals who want love. It's just the boring, soul-crushing, everyday grind of institutional oppression, mostly aimed at controlling minority men who are perceived, by virtue of their race and gender, as a violent threat just for existing. Destroying the lives of minority women is, in that context, mostly an accidental bonus oppression.

This isn't to say that minority women aren't discriminated against in many, many ways. The fact that Orange Is The New Black has been able to attract such a range of phenomenally talented women actors of color speaks loudly about the shamefully limited opportunities for black and Latina women in television and film. But despite its path-breaking representation of minority women, the show remains trapped by gender preconceptions that aren't path-breaking at all. OITNB is so eager to sympathize with broken-hearted women and their individual sadnesses that it has no time to consider the institutional machinery of injustice that, in this case, has little directly to do with either individuals or women. It's hard to see how such a distorted view of incarceration helps prisoners of any gender.

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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:13 am
Do you need feminism? Ask yourself these questions:

Can women in your country vote?
Can women in your country own property?
Can women in your country file for divorce?
Can women in your country work for themselves?
Do women in your country have the right to bodily integrity (i.e. to not have their genitals circumcised as babies before they can even speak up?)

If you've answered yes to these questions, then feminism has ALREADY reached it's goals and is UNNECESSARY in your country.

In these situations (I'm not including the 3rd world where feminism is very much needed) feminism's only goals are to attain special privileges for women only. To essentially make men sit in the back of the bus...
Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:33 am
let's lead by example then, be the bigger man so to speak, and end this maninism nonsense talk

if they see we don't need it maybe they'll rethink
Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:41 am
i admit to knowing little about MRM

i had an MRI once, it was painful (not the MRI per say, but the gave you these headphones to wear to block out the noise, and they played this god awful pop radio station)

i've also eaten an MRE, it was tasteless
Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:42 am
let's lead by example then, be the bigger man so to speak, and end this maninism nonsense talk

Why is speaking up about men's issues "nonsense"?

That's exactly the kind of attitude that propagates the gynocentric culture we live in.

What about this thread is nonsense in the slightest bit?

Is the sentencing gap in criminal courts that results in women serving on average nearly half the jail time for the EXACT same crimes as men do nonsense? (just to name one example)
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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:45 am
i admit to knowing little about MRM

I'm not being facetious at all in saying PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO!

There are actually 6 parts total so far. They are all eye openers. It's not a waste of time!

Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:50 am
i'm nothing if not facetious

and spurious, speciest and spatial discomforted on occasion
Thu 10 Jul, 2014 05:57 am
seriously, just give the video a try.

Or ANY of that youtube user's videos.

They are all very intelligent, well reasoned, and well made.
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Thu 10 Jul, 2014 03:11 pm
But the police aren't charging the girl ...of course.

I've been giving Manassas, Virginia, and the Manassas City Police Department a hard time today on Twitter. Because of this story, which I wrote up earlier today on Slog. To recap: two teenagers—one a 17-year-old boy, one 15-year-old girl—sexted each other. The 15-year-old girl initiated the sexting. The girl's mom found the sexts and called the cops. The cops arrested the 17-year-old boy—and only the boy—and Assistant Commonwealth’s Attorney Claiborne Richardson is vigorously prosecuting that boy for possessing and manufacturing child porn.

The Washington Post wrote the case up this morning. Buzzfeed unpacked it as only Buzzfeed can. But the best summary is at Wonkette:

So there is a 17-year-old boy in Manassas, Virginia. He has (had?) a 15-year-old girlfriend. She sent him pictures of her plump blossoming bosoms or whatever, so he sent her video (probably a Vine?) of his junk. Now the police want to take him to a hospital, shoot his dick full of Love Potion No. Nine, and take hot hot child prOn pictures of his hard boy-penis, so they can compare it to the penis in the video, and then prosecute him for child pornography. Everything about this story makes total sense. What is the first thing that makes sense about this story, Washington Post?

The teen is facing two felony charges, for possession of child pornography and manufacturing child pornography, which could lead not only to incarceration until he’s 21, but inclusion on the state sex offender data base for, possibly, the rest of his life.

Oh, he was “manufacturing” child prOn by taking pictures of his own and not anybody else’s penis, and so could go to jail for four years and be considered a sex offender forever? SEE, TOTAL SENSE.

But first Claiborne Richardson is going to drag that kid to a hospital in handcuffs and “give him a shot, and then take the pictures that we need.” The pictures Richardson needs—the pictures he craves—are pictures of the erect penis of that 17-year-old boy. Take it away, Wonkette:

Got it, Manassas PD and prosecutors. You just need to make some child prOn to show that boys making their own child prOn OF THEMSELVES AND NOT ANYBODY ELSE AND FOR TO SEND TO THEIR GIRLFRIENDS NOT TO SELL TO JOE FRANCIS OR WHATEVER is wrong. Everything about this case screams “TOTALLY APPROPRIATE ADULTS ACTING SENSIBLY AND IN AN APPROPRIATE WAY.”

Like I said, I've been giving the city of Manassas and the Manassas City Police Department a hard time on Twitter. And they deserve it and won't you please join me? But the biggest villain in this piece is Assistant Commonwealth’s Attorney Claiborne Richardson. He's the driving force behind the prosecution of this kid. So I am officially calling out the flying monkeys—it's been a while, my lovelies—and asking you to flood this creepy dicksniffer's email inbox with letters of protest and jam the phone lines at his office. Here are Richardson's email address and phone numbers:

Thu 10 Jul, 2014 10:35 pm
So if a 17 year old boy and a 15 year old girl send naked pictures to each other on their phones (when the girl initiated the sexting in the first place), the boy gets arrested and has law enforcement taking pictures of his penis but the girl isn't arrested at all?

But no, we don't at all live in a world where men are always viewed as predators and women are protected people who are always viewed as victims...

I just can't believe how fucked up the world we live in is.
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Fri 11 Jul, 2014 12:44 am
Prostitute in Google Exec Case Linked to 2nd Death

Two months before police say a high-priced prostitute calmly left a Google executive dying from a heroin overdose on his yacht, the woman panicked on the phone with a 911 dispatcher as her boyfriend lay on the floor of their home in the throes of a fatal overdose.

Police said Thursday they are re-examining the death of Dean Riopelle, 53, the owner of a popular Atlanta music venue. Riopelle had been dating Alix Tichelman, 26, who is now charged with manslaughter in the November death of Google executive Forrest Hayes. She was never charged in Riopelle's death.

"Both subjects in these cases died of heroin overdoses so there's just several factors we want to look at to make sure that we didn't miss anything," Milton police Capt. Shawn McCarty said.

It is not clear how long Tichelman may have been involved in prostitution, though police in California say she had many clients in the wealthy Silicon Valley. Police there also said that, after Hayes' death, she had done online searches for how to defend herself legally after administering a lethal dose of heroin.

Numerous social media postings, photos and other articles online suggest she was pursuing a career as a fetish model and a life with Riopelle — one photo posted on her Facebook page shows her displaying a diamond "promise ring" given to her by Riopelle.

Riopelle and Tichelman had been dating for about two and a half years and lived together, said Riopelle's sister, Dee Riopelle.

In a 2012 interview with a fetish magazine, fIXE, under the pseudonym AK Kennedy, Tichelman describes herself as a model, writer and makeup artist.

One post on her Facebook page, titled simply "heroin," is a poem that opens with the line: "this private downward spiral-this suffocating blackhole."

She also said she was interested in bondage, dominance, sadism and masochism, or BDSM. She said she and Riopelle would go to clubs, with her wearing a collar and leash.

Photos that accompany her interview show her in sexually suggestive poses wearing a variety of skimpy outfits, including a studded leather jacket with thigh-high fishnet stockings.

Riopelle was the lead singer of a rock 'n' roll band called the Impotent Sea Snakes, known for its wild stage shows and sexually explicit lyrics. Online videos show the band performing at a massive music festival in Germany, with members dressed in drag. Riopelle, under the moniker "13," is wearing a long, pink wig, a leopard-print jacket, platform boots and tight pants.

Back in Georgia, Riopelle also was known for owning the Masquerade, a popular Atlanta music venue that is a popular destination for rock, punk and metal acts. Housed in a former mill, the venue is composed of three levels: "heaven" upstairs; "purgatory" on the main floor; and "hell" downstairs.

He was also known for his love of monkeys, as evidenced by his well-kept property in Milton. Just to the right of Riopelle's home stand large animal enclosures, which include a barrel strung up by rope and fencing extending to the top.

Riopelle went to the University of Florida and got a degree in construction engineering. But when he was told by a boss to cut his hair and wear a bigger tie, he decided engineering wasn't for him, his sister said. He opened his first bar, also called the Masquerade, in the historic Ybor City neighborhood of Tampa, Florida, his sister said. About 25 years ago, he moved to Atlanta and opened the Masquerade there.

Over the years he also opened several sports bars and a fetish bar, his sister said.

"He was very, very wise when it came to business sense," Dee Riopelle said. "Everything Dean touched turned to gold."

In September, however, he and Tichelman's lives took a dark turn. On Sept. 6, a drunken Tichelman called police, saying Riopelle threw her to the ground, according to a police report. Riopelle told officers that she had taken pills and drank alcohol, and had been stage diving and exposing her breasts that night at the Masquerade. He said he took her home because he did not approve.

Riopelle also told officers that she bit him on the finger and threatened to hit herself and tell police Riopelle had beaten her. A neighbor confirmed hearing Tichelman say that. She was charged with battery and arrested; Riopelle was not.

Less than two weeks later, a panicked Tichelman called 911, saying her boyfriend had overdosed on something and wouldn't respond. She told a dispatcher that his eyes were open but that he was unconscious, describing his breathing as "on and off." In the 911 tapes released Thursday, she can be heard saying, "Hello, Dean? Dean, are you awake?"

Tichelman tried for five minutes to revive him before calling 911, according to a police report. She said she had been in the shower when she heard a crash and came out to find Riopelle unconscious. Tichelman said she did not know how much drugs Riopelle had taken, but that he had been on a "bender the last few days," according to the police report.

Riopelle died at a hospital a week later. An autopsy report listed his death as an accidental overdose of heroin, oxycodone and alcohol. Tichelman had told the dispatcher that he had been taking painkillers and drinking.

Police say surveillance video from the Google executive's yacht shows Tichelman's next deadly encounter with heroin in California, on Nov. 23.

Santa Cruz Deputy Police Chief Steve Clark gives the following account from the video:

Tichelman prepares the heroin to a liquid and injects it into Hayes' arm. Shortly after, Hayes clutches his chest, near his heart. Tichelman tries to prop him up, but he then loses consciousness.

Tichelman then starts picking up her belongings, including the needle, and cleans up a counter while stepping over Hayes several times. During that time, Tichelman calmly drinks a glass of wine and surveys the scene.

Tichelman then goes outside the cabin of the boat on the dock, looks back inside, then pulls down a window blind, closes a door and leaves.

"Never does she call 911 or call out to others in nearby boats for help. She never tries to administer any aid to him," Clark said. "She is more concerned about getting herself out and concealing evidence than helping Mr. Hayes."

Clark said that investigators learned that Tichelman later did online searches "on how to defend herself after giving a lethal dose of heroin."

Investigators also learned that Tichelman planned to leave California late last month, possibly for Georgia, and maybe even the country, Clark said.

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Fri 11 Jul, 2014 07:15 am
There is a part of me that says I should just steer clear of your anger fueled threads, but there is a bigger part of me that says I should try to explain this to you, to give you another perspective than the places where you are feeding your rage. Please don't feel the need to respond immediately to what I write but let it sit for a while and think about it. If that sounds sanctimonious, maybe it is but I have three sons and I would hope that if one of my sons was going off the rails, someone would try to help.

The world is unfair. We all go through a stage where we want, even expect the world to be fair - it isn't and never has been. There will always be people falsely accused, people who get sick through no fault of their own, people harmed by the negligence of society or by its active disregard. There are billions of people on the planet and with Internet news, you can find lots of stories of injustice. That said, being a white male puts you in the most favored class in Western society by a large margin. I say that as a white male who has the added advantage of being reasonably well off. I can say with 100% certainty (because I have seen it first hand) that white males have significant advantages in the job market, in the legal system and in society at large. That doesn't mean that some of the concerns you point out are not valid. There are social expectations on men and responsibilities that fall mainly to men because of their size, strength and traditional role as leaders that are unfair, but other groups face similar and often more onerous expectations that are far more limiting. Once again, some of the complaints you mention are completely valid and you will find other threads on this website supported by all members discussing the challenges boys face in schools, the rights of men as parents, etc - but you need to understand that for groups that face significantly more challenges, listening to men whine about how hard their lives are doesn't go very far. My daily reality is that people will give my wife (who has the same degree and experience I do) grief and then go out of their way to help me. It happens all the time.

One problem that we have in sifting the news is that it is very easy for those with an agenda to cherry pick data in today's world. You have posted the occasional story about men false accused of rape. I don't think anyone really disagrees that being falsely accused of anything is bad and rape especially, but when you read those stories I want you to keep a broader statistic in mind. 80% of reported rapes never go to court because prosecutors refuse to move the case forward, often even with reasonable evidence. This is especially true if the accused is a white male. For every story about a man being falsely accused, I can find one about a teenager being slut shamed after she was raped. Coming forward and reporting a rape is still a risky proposition for the victim. Don't believe me? Spend as much time researching it as you do looking for male victims. It is easy to find.

Shifting gears a bit, a personal example on how the court system favors men. My son was caught speeding 22mph over the limit. Where he was caught, that is reckless driving and is pretty bad. I had him dress up, got a lawyer and sent him to court. He sat there and watched the judge hammer person after person. He got up, the lawyer said a few words about how he was an upstanding young man, the judge let him off with a slap on the wrist. (You could also say this story is about class and wealth and I wouldn't disagree. My point is that I am a member of a privileged class.) The overall data is also pretty clear. White men get much easier sentences for just about every crime than minorities. Another personal story this time about the workplace. We had a major layoff a few years ago and had to let go a large number of professionals. One of those laid off was a truly outstanding engineer, probably the best in her class, one who had already delivered significant results to the company. The reason she was laid off - her boyfriend was laid off and the head engineer figured she would probably quit anyway when he moved to get a new job. Yes, she was laid off because of who she was dating. Do you really think that would have happened if the gender roles were reversed? (Good conclusion to that story: we eventually hired her back and now her career is doing very well.) I have lots of firsthand workplace stories of casual discrimination against women. I can say it is better than twenty years ago and I can say that it completely exists today and is not hard to find. Men are typically judged on their work performance while women are judged on their work performance, their appearance, how they get along with others, their family situation, etc.

You have said something to the effect of there is no need for a feminist movement if women have voting, ownership rights, etc. Those are just the tip of the iceberg to being treated fairly. Believe me when I say that what you perceive as feminine privilege is completely overwhelmed by what you take for granted as male privilege. Want some interesting reading? Go find stories of transsexuals (MTF and FTM) and read their stories of how they were treated by others before and after transitioning. I think white women are probably the second most favored class in Western society, but my firsthand experience says the gap between one and two is pretty large.

You ask if the "Men's Rights Movement" is hateful. IMO, that movement attracts a lot of bad elements in our society. Rape apologists, slut shamers, misogynists of all stripes. You will find lots of people, men and women, supporting equal visitation and parenting rights for men, not so many denying that rape occurs on college campuses. Are there women who hate men? Of course, why wouldn't you expect there to be? The difference IMO is the women's rights movement is mostly populated by those who really want equality and the "man hater" is a small minority. It is a popular pastime to find a vocal man hater and use her to tar feminists everywhere. Don't let yourself be sucked into that. The definition of feminism is a movement striving for equal rights. I doubt you really have a problem with that.

Best of luck to you. I hope you can steer yourself away for those few stories that get sent about purporting that men are so abused and try to get the bigger picture. Remember the world is not fair. It is not fair to anyone but I know from a half century of experience that it is more fair to me than others. I also hope you can let go of some of the anger that seems to suffuse your postings. Internet forums are not friendly places in general and you should fully expect to get flamed on occasion. If you can't handle that, you are in the wrong place. If you can, this site is probably among the best on the web.

Fri 11 Jul, 2014 11:15 pm
No, Women Don’t Make Less Money Than Men

It’s the bogus statistic that won’t die—and president deployed it during the State of the Union—but women do not make 77 cents to every dollar a man earns.

President Obama repeated the spurious gender wage gap statistic in his State of the Union address. “Today,” he said, “women make up about half our workforce. But they still make 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. That is wrong, and in 2014, it’s an embarrassment.”

What is wrong and embarrassing is the President of the United States reciting a massively discredited factoid. The 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure, or hours worked per week. When all these relevant factors are taken into consideration, the wage gap narrows to about five cents. And no one knows if the five cents is a result of discrimination or some other subtle, hard-to-measure difference between male and female workers. In its fact-checking column on the State of the Union, the Washington Post included the president’s mention of the wage gap in its list of dubious claims. “There is clearly a wage gap, but differences in the life choices of men and women… make it difficult to make simple comparisons.”

Consider, for example, how men and women differ in their college majors. Here is a list (PDF) of the ten most remunerative majors compiled by the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Men overwhelmingly outnumber women in all but one of them:

1. Petroleum Engineering: 87% male
2. Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% male
3. Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% male
4. Aerospace Engineering: 88% male
5. Chemical Engineering: 72% male
6. Electrical Engineering: 89% male
7. Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male
8. Mechanical Engineering: 90% male
9. Metallurgical Engineering: 83% male
10. Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% male

And here are the 10 least remunerative majors—where women prevail in nine out of ten:

1. Counseling Psychology: 74% female
2. Early Childhood Education: 97% female
3. Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% female
4. Human Services and Community Organization: 81% female
5. Social Work: 88% female
6. Drama and Theater Arts: 60% female
7. Studio Arts: 66% female
8. Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female
9. Visual and Performing Arts: 77% female
10. Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% female

Much of the wage gap can be explained away by simply taking account of college majors. Early childhood educators and social workers can expect to earn around $36,000 and $39,000, respectively. By contrast, petroleum engineering and metallurgy degrees promise median earnings of $120,000 and $80,000. Not many aspiring early childhood educators would change course once they learn they can earn more in metallurgy or mining. The sexes, taken as a group, are somewhat different. Women, far more than men, appear to be drawn to jobs in the caring professions; and men are more likely to turn up in people-free zones. In the pursuit of happiness, men and women appear to take different paths.

But here is the mystery. These and other differences in employment preferences and work-family choices have been widely studied in recent years and are now documented in a mountain of solid empirical research. By now the President and his staff must be aware that the wage gap statistic has been demolished. This is not the first time the Washington Post has alerted the White House to the error. Why continue to use it? One possibility is that they have been taken in by the apologetics of groups like the National Organization for Women and the American Association of University Women. In its 2007 Behind the Pay Gap report, the AAUW admits that most of the gap in earnings is explained by choices. But this admission is qualified: “Women’s personal choices are similarly fraught with inequities,” says the AAUW. It speaks of women being “pigeonholed” into “pink-collar” jobs in health and education. According to NOW, powerful sexist stereotypes “steer” women and men “toward different education, training, and career paths.”

Have these groups noticed that American women are now among the most educated, autonomous, opportunity-rich women in history? Why not respect their choices? For the past few decades, untold millions of state and federal dollars have been devoted to recruiting young women into engineering and computer technology. It hasn’t worked. The percent of degrees awarded to women in fields like computer science and engineering has either stagnated or significantly decreased since 2000. (According to Department of Education data, in 2000, women earned 19 percent of engineering BA’s, and 28 percent in computer science; by 2011, only 17 percent of engineering degrees were awarded to females, and the percent of female computer science degrees had dropped to 18.) All evidence suggests that though young women have the talent for engineering and computer science, their interest tends to lie elsewhere. To say that these women remain helplessly in thrall to sexist stereotypes, and manipulated into life choices by forces beyond their control, is divorced from reality—and demeaning to boot. If a woman wants to be a teacher rather than a miner, or a veterinarian rather than a petroleum engineer, more power to her.

The White House should stop using women’s choices to construct a false claim about social inequality that is poisoning our gender debates. And if the President is truly persuaded that statistical pay disparities indicate invidious discrimination, then he should address the wage gap in his own backyard. Female staff at the White House earn 88 cents on the dollar compared to men. Is there a White House war on women?

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Sat 12 Jul, 2014 01:26 am
Please don't feel the need to respond immediately to what I write but let it sit for a while and think about it.

I've honored your request. Now please honor mine: Please don't respond immediately to what I've written in this post. Let it sink in for a while and think about it. I mean really think about it objectively. And that goes for anyone reading this.

That said, being a white male puts you in the most favored class in Western society by a large margin.

First I'm African American. Second I disagree. I would say that yes, for instance,
White men get much easier sentences for just about every crime than minorities.
That's true! But white men are also targets for the vast majority of hatred in society. I have many white, male friends and family. Many of those males grew up poor and had no advantages or anything handed to them in life, yet they've had hatred aimed at them for their supposed "white male privilege".

But this thread isn't about race, or sexual orientation for that matter. It's about men, ALL men. Black men, white men, gay men, transgender men, ect. ALL MEN and how their issues deserve to be addressed!

There are social expectations on men and responsibilities that fall mainly to men because of their size, strength and traditional role as leaders that are unfair

One of the biggest expectations is to suffer in silence. Boys are socialized from a young age in a much harsher way than girls are. They're disciplined in a harsher way. And this socialization teaches men to be stoic, and if they can't be stoic and shut up when they're suffering, people attack them or shame them (kind of like I've been attacked for speaking up about men's issues on A2K). And that's a big part of why the male suicide rate is so much higher than the female suicide rate is. Men are constantly demonized for the traits that make them masculine. They are constantly told that men are predators, that men are oppressors. But they're also told not speak up if they have problems, because they will viewed as weak, or a "pussy", or a "faggot" for talking about their feelings. Women are encouraged to talk about their problems. Women can openly cry in public without fear of being shamed for it! There are organizations all over the place devoted solely to helping women! Women in western society are the most protected and privileged group of people in the entire world!

You yourself say,
listening to men whine about how hard their lives are doesn't go very far.

And that's exactly the point! Men are told to suffer in silence; to "shut up and be a man!"

One problem that we have in sifting the news is that it is very easy for those with an agenda to cherry pick data in today's world.

And the exact same thing can be said about something like firefly and her rape thread. She cherry picks stories to paint a picture of men as all being potential rapists. Yet she is not attacked. And that's because men's issues have been unfairly demonized.

You have said something to the effect of there is no need for a feminist movement if women have voting, ownership rights, etc.

Me saying that feminism is unneeded is not the same thing as me saying that that woman don't have issues that need to be addressed. Both genders have issues that need to be addressed. The point is that women's issues have been getting attention and support for decades, while men's issues haven't. Women's issues are taken seriously, men's issues are not. Feminism in the western world in the year 2014 is no longer about equality. It is now only concerned with acquiring and keeping special privileges for women only.

The difference IMO is the women's rights movement is mostly populated by those who really want equality and the "man hater" is a small minority.

That could not be further from the truth. If feminism is about equality, then why does it spend so much time trying to silence opposing voices? Why did feminists call in death threats to the first international conference on men's issues? Sounds like equality to me. Rolling Eyes Why is anyone who speaks out against feminism branded a "misogynist"? There are other groups who brand anyone with an opposing viewpoint as evil; groups like the KKK.

You use the term "slut shaming" frequently in this post. You do realize how ridiculous that term is right? It's essentially a woman's way of saying "I have the right to act as sexually immoral as I choose. But no one has the right to point that out". Apply this logic to other types of behaviors. "I have the right to murder as many people as I want, but no one has the right to point out that I'm a murderer." I think that anyone in either gender who acts like a slut deserves to be treated like a slut. It was their choice to act that way.

The definition of feminism is a movement striving for equal rights.

And this argument is one of the biggest piles of **** in all of feminist propaganda. Just because something is defined in a certain way does not limit that thing from being used for other purposes.

Here's how the dictionary defines the word "Airplane":

air·plane noun \ˈer-ˌplān\
: a machine that has wings and an engine and that flies through the air

The dictionary doesn't mention that airplanes can be used as terrorist weapons to fly into buildings and kill people. And yet 9/11 happened anyway...

Remember the world is not fair. It is not fair to anyone but I know from a half century of experience that it is more fair to me than others.

Yes, the world is not fair. But as far as I can tell there is an explanation for why it is more fair to you than others. You mentioned that you are wealthy. I would argue that your wealth is not indicative of all men. Nor is it even indicative of all white men. When you share personal experiences where you say that being male has worked in your favor I would argue that had nothing to do with it. I would argue that your wealth is what caused those situations to work out in your favor. Being wealthy affords you special treatment in life, but it also blinds you to the reality of those (like myself) who are not wealthy. And that's also another lie that feminism preaches. Feminists say that because of "male privilege" even a homeless white man has more privilege and opportunities in life than a wealthy black woman does.

Wealthy people of all genders and women as a whole have more privilege in society than anyone else does. Those are the two most privileged groups of people in all of society. And because of that privilege, their view of the world is skewed. Having special privileges makes people less empathetic towards the suffering of people who don't have those same privileges. They've lived their whole lives with advantages, so when someone without those advantages speaks up about inequality, they just say "quit your whining!" Just go ask the Republicans...

I grew up poor. I have white male friends and family who grew up poor too. You can not relate to our experiences, and we don't deserve to be sold short because of our imaginary "male privilege".
0 Replies
Sat 12 Jul, 2014 02:01 am
Whelp, nice try.
Sat 12 Jul, 2014 02:11 am
Whelp, nice try.

I don't understand this comment.

Am I supposed to apologize for being born male?

Is that the desired response from those who are ignorant about men's issues and why they need to be addressed?
Sat 12 Jul, 2014 02:14 am
But it wasn't addressed to you, now was it?

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