Why aren't feminists speaking out about this???

I don't believe you are really using the concept of objectification accurately.

You clearly aren't complaining that Meeks "dignity" isn't being adequate regarded. Your main gripe seems to be the internet/media pop celebrity status he's achieved because of the social media attention being paid to his mug shot, and the fact that, in response to that mug shot, some women find him attractive, and even "sexy", despite his criminal history.

Finding someone in a photo attractive really is unrelated to "objectification"--"objectification" is demeaning, and dehumanizing, on a par with regarding and treating someone as "a thing"--it has a negative impact on the individual, or group, being objectified.

Again, your gripe is that the alleged "objectification" of Meeks has had, not a negative effect, but rather a positive effect on him--he's gained some media attention, it led to a possible job offer, some people contributed to bail for him, etc.. That's because those things don't indicate objectification, they are positive responses to his perceived physical attractiveness in a photo. And there is nothing unusual, or atypical, about that sort of response to an attractive looking person--as information I already posted indicates. I'll post it again

And you definitely don't seem to accurately understand how feminists have used the concept of objectification, and why some of them have objected to it--it's related to how women, in general, are regarded in society.

Again, how is it harmful to Meeks, or men in general, that some women, in response to his mug shot, view him as sexually desirable? How is it harmful that some of them see him as physically attractive despite his criminal status? Is their finding him "sexy" going to affect his criminal case in any way? And Camille Paglia, who you've already cited as someone you agree with, sees this type of objectification in a rather positive light--in terms of our aesthetic sensibilities.

Simply because some women respond to Meeks photo in a certain way, you can hardly draw any accurate conclusions about women in general, or even about most of those women who posted about his photo, beyond the fact that many of them found him physically attractive. And part of the interest was sparked simply because the average person does not look that good in a mug shot. I'm inclined to think that Meeks probably doesn't look quite as good in person as he did in his mug shot, and that it's likely a particularly flattering photo of him. So, as mug shots go, this one was a little unusual, and that's what sparked the media hype.

When you look at his photo, objectively that is all you see--you don't see his crimes, you see only his face. And his coloring, and bone structure, in that photo is attractive--not unlike that of many male models. Just because he's a criminal doesn't mean he's not entitled to be perceived as good-looking. Were those Facebook posters singing his praises as a human being, or were they mainly just commenting that they found his facial appearance attractive or "hot" or "sexy"? Similar things are posted by men in response to mug shots of attractive women--here's an example.: Attractive Convict http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/attractive-convict


I don't think most women expect most men to have ""six packs" bulging biceps and muscular legs"--and many women (including me) don't even find that type of physique all that attractive, although many gay men might. And I know no women who see most men as "beefcakes" rather than as persons. That doesn't mean women can't enjoy and appreciate looking at a good-looking man with a toned body, and it doesn't mean they regard more average looking men as inferior human beings, or that they confine their relationships only to very attractive men-- most women don't do that.

Men and woman both simply recognize, and appreciate, attractiveness in others--in others of the opposite sex, and in others of the same gender as well. We all respond to facial attractiveness--even infants do--it has nothing to do with being shallow. And being attractive is generally not a hindrance in life--it carries with it many advantages--nor is it something that should be held against a person, as you seem to be doing with Meeks. You resent the fact he's still seen as attractive, by some, despite the things he's done in life, you resent the fact there was talk of his getting a modeling job, simply based on his attractiveness in a mug shot, while college grads are still job-hunting. But, I'll repeat what I said before--just because he's a criminal doesn't mean he's not entitled to be perceived as good-looking. Being good-looking is not a crime.

So why are you continuing to make him relevant--by starting threads like this one?

Excellent prose, firefly. Thanks for sharing your ideas about this subject. From my standpoint, it's about 'natural' responses of both males and females to physical attraction. Most don't go any further from 'there.'

I'm not in the mood to get into big disagreement with you, CI, but many women are attracted to a guy with brains and wit. I suppose the odd man or two or three is too, re women.

With most cultures, rich old men have greater choice in the women they wish to get involved with. Seems physical attraction changed to money attraction.

Russian feminists chainsaw down Jesus!-








Wonder which bit of this they don't like?-





Jesus said- "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:28 )
Jesus said to the snooty priests-"The prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)
Paul said "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Are you trying to figure out which women could be one of the good ones???? That sounds a tad paternalistic to me. My Dad was great, I'm a little too old to need another daddy, put your own house in order.

"He shall give his angels charge over you to keep you safe" (Psalm 91:11)

Oh, in terms of who people really want to get involved with, things like personality factors are probably paramount--for both men and women. But I agree with C.I., it's natural for both men and women to react to attractiveness in others--it's really an automatic response to superficial physical characteristics we find pleasing to look at.

But in this thread, Buttermilk's gripe is simply about the way some females on the social media responded to a man's photo--a mug shot photo.

The fact that they found the man attractive, or even sexy, doesn't mean they'd really want to get involved with him, no matter what nonsense they posted from their safe anonymous perch on the internet. They were simply reacting to a photo, and I'd take this sort of social media phenomenon with a grain of salt, it's really more frivolous than anything else, and I think Buttermilk's error is in trying to draw serious conclusions, about women, or about their morality, or about the objectification of men, because they found the man good-looking despite his criminal history.

I see good-looking men all the time, they are nice to look at, that doesn't mean I really want to get involved with them, or jump into bed with them, it just means I'm admiring them. And I also thought that Meeks mug shot had (forgive the pun) an arresting quality. It wasn't a typical mug shot.

There are some women who are attracted to criminals, even notorious criminals who have killed women, some even marry criminals already serving life sentences, but that's hardly the norm. And I don't think most of the posters swooning over Meeks on Facebook were doing anything but saying they found him attractive--on the basis of his photo, not his rap sheet. Now we're supposed to regard women as suspect, because they think some man looks good in a photo--even if the photo is a mug shot? That's kind of stretching it, on Buttermilk's part, just to be able to make negative judgments of women.

I agree with what you said in your earlier post--Buttermilk has some sort of gripe with feminism, based on a few academic feminists he learned something about in a course, and he's grossly over-generalizing from that, and grinding the same axe in several threads.

Yeah and a lot of white women like black men, which is another reason why they voted Obama into the White House instead of Sarah Palin..

Get stuffed you clueless dipwad.

They used to force-feed suffragettes by shoving a tube down their throats, which amounted to torture.




If America had voted for Sarah Palin it'd have been a great milestone for women everywhere, from a torture cell to the White House..

Dude, you sound like a misogynist.

Your opinion is no importance to me.

"I don't believe you are really using the concept of objectification accurately."

Belief doesn't substantiate your claim that I'm making an invalid statement

"Finding someone in a photo attractive really is unrelated to "objectification"--"objectification" is demeaning, and dehumanizing, on a par with regarding and treating someone as "a thing"--it has a negative impact on the individual, or group, being objectified."

Apparently you haven't read the comments and yes judging by social media and what I see on my news feed on Facebook and subsequent videos on Youtube is quite apparent.

"Simply because some women respond to Meeks photo in a certain way, you can hardly draw any accurate conclusions about women in general, or even about most of those women who posted about his photo, beyond the fact that many of them found him physically attractive."

I'm going by what I read and what I've experienced here in the state of California where our society is very materialistic, shallow, and at times ripe with narcissistic. Going by what I know from the aforementioned characteristics of my surroundings I think I can make a conclusion generally of what is around me. Now, I cannot speak for women in Kansas or Wyoming, I'm speaking on the women I'm surrounded by and quite frankly, a lot of women are shallow. This goes beyond simply saying someone is attractive.

"Were those Facebook posters singing his praises as a human being, or were they mainly just commenting that they found his facial appearance attractive or "hot" or "sexy"?"

There were several posters that overlooked his crime and yes analyst are stating that a persons attractiveness can indeed elevate their status in society. As with the Boston Bomber, Charles Manson Menedez Brothers, women often overlook the criminality of these individuals and downplay their crimes because of their attractiveness. The concept of "too attractive for jail" is quite apparent. Alas, you're overlooking the fact that women have for a long time, since the times of James Dean have been attracted to dangerous men.

Many sociologist have concluded that society still holds people with lighter skin and colored eyes which are Euro-features to be a standard of beauty. We see this fad among the Japanese to widen their eyes, we see this among Cubans (most notably Sammy Sosa) to lighten skin and we see this among African-Americans to get colored contacts.


"I don't think most women expect most men to have ""six packs" bulging biceps and muscular legs"--and many women (including me) don't even find that type of physique all that attractive, although many gay men might."

Obviously you're older than me and out of touch with the current standard of attractiveness. I'm sure you'd find me unattractive (based on your statement) since I myself like to maintain good symmetry by lifting weights and eating right. Most women that I know like a man who is athletic and in shape. This doesn't mean the man has to be a body builder, but a man being in shape and takes care of himself is appealing to a lot of women. But like I said you're probably older and speaking from a generation older than mine.

I cannot recall the countless times I've been complimented on my body while even wearing a nice T-shirt or a tank top. At times I'm slightly embarrassed because I get looked at and flirted on. I'm 32 and this has been going on since I was 12.


"Men and woman both simply recognize, and appreciate, attractiveness in others--in others of the opposite sex, and in others of the same gender as well."

Yes, but men on facebook don't say "she can stick a plunger in my ass and rape me" as one woman on facebook had stated about her willing to allow Meeks to "rape her vagina." I mean, finding someone attractive is one thing but to even remotely joke about rape is nonsensical and the person is attempting to make actual rape victims a trivial matter.


"So why are you continuing to make him relevant--by starting threads like this one?"

Actually this thread was created the same time Meeks was awarded a modeling contract. You decided to respond. I'm responding and this discussion is becoming continually cyclical. If you wish to stop discussion by all means you're allowed to. I'm merely responding to the fact that today's women are shallow like men. But then again, I wouldn't expect an old timer like you to understand my generation.

My issue is with academic feminists (not the armchair feminist I see online) I'm opposed to any feminist who seek to instead of equality but seek to make women's interests above men and to discount the issues men face. I'm against women who chastise men for their role is misogyny but are silent about women who have views that are obvious (and subtle) against men.

The following substantiates the view that some women typically overlook the misdeeds of a person due to their attraction of a dangerous person:

British mother abandons her three children to marry Texas violent prisoner she met online after becoming 'impressed with his honesty'



"A British mother is to pack up and leave her three children behind to make a whole new life with a violent US prisoner she met online.
Jennifer Butler, 29, will leave the UK and travel to French Robertson Unit in Texas to marry Christopher Mosier, 23 and leave her three young children all younger than 10 with their father."

Here is the following which is similar to the attitudes of women who've expressed a similar thought about Jeremy Meeks:


"'Some people might think I'm bonkers for falling in love with a prisoner. And not everyone will agree with our relationship,' Butler said to The Sun. 'But Chris is a wonderful man. Sure, he made a few mistakes in the past, but everybody deserves a second chance."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2677286/British-mother-abandons-three-children-marry-violent-prisoner-met-online-impressed-honesty.html#ixzz36saRFTxn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The following talks about the Boston Bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

"Tsarnaev supporter and New York City resident Karina said her loyalty is due to a strong belief that he is innocent — not an attraction.

“I saw a lot of the teenage fan girls in the beginning, but that has diminished because we called them out pretty quickly,” said Karina, who requested her last name be withheld. “It is obvious that he’s a good-looking young man,” she added.

“Speaking for myself, I don’t see a cute guy. I see someone who got screwed over big time, and it could happen to me or anyone. I will never give up. I am there 110 percent.”

- See more at: http://www.metro.us/newyork/news/2013/08/18/a-look-into-the-minds-of-tsarnaevs-fan-girls/#sthash.jhxmpOHH.dpuf



The following videos also substantiate the claim that women of this caliber tend to overlook the misdeeds of a man due to looks:






The following video commentary from a retired LAPD officer a female I might add also weighs in on the felon and this officer really proves my whole entire point regarding this thread her views start at 2:18:








Need I mention Charles Manson????? More craziness from females




As I mentioned before it is one thing to be attracted to someone, but when you make comments regarding rape as one commentor wrote "he can rape my vagina" then it goes beyond the notion of attractiveness and into the realm of ridiculousness.

Why Do Women Fall for Bad Boys?


"Indeed, research has established that Dark Triad men demonstrate more sexual success by comparison to their peers. However, Carter and his colleagues point out that virtually all of these studies have used self-report data. In other words, the Dark Triad men participating in these studies have been describing themselves as having more sexual prowess. Given this one-sided view, the researchers wondered whether women would find Dark Triad men more attractive.

In order to investigate this question, Carter and his team presented 128 female undergraduates with the descriptions of two types of male characters: Dark Triads and controls. The high Dark Triad self- description encompassed traits from the "Dirty Dozen" measure, which includes: a desire for attention, admiration, favors, and prestige; the manipulation, exploitation, deceit and flattery of others; a lack of remorse, morality concerns and sensitivity, and cynicism. (The ‘Dirty Dozen’ is a condensed version of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, Mach-IV, and Psychopathy Scale-III). The control self-description purposefully matched the high Dark Triad description, but it dropped out the dark personality traits.

After being presented with one of these two characters, the participants answered questions along a six-point scale about the attractiveness of the individual's personality (they also rated the characters for the Big Five personality traits, which is beyond the scope of this post). In addition, factors known to influence attractiveness ratings, such as wealth and education level, were omitted in order to reduce the possibility of bias. The investigators then ran their analyses.

What did Carter and his colleagues find? Women found the Dark Triad personality more attractive than the control. This result is in keeping with previous studies in which Dark Triad men reported their increased level of sexual success.

What might explain this result? Carter and his colleagues offer two possible explanations. First, sexual selection might be at work. This would mean that women are responding to signals of “male quality” when it comes to reproduction. And with respect to short-term mating, women may be drawn to ‘bad boys’, who demonstrate confidence, stubbornness, and risk-taking tendencies. Second, sexual conflict may be at play. The investigators state that “Women may be responding to DT men’s ability to ‘sell themselves’; a useful tactic in a co-evolutionary ‘arms race’ in which men convince women to pursue the former’s preferred sexual strategy.” They note that like a “used-car dealer,” Dark Triad men may be effective charmers and manipulators, furthering their success at short-term mating. The authors are also careful to note that though women rated the DT character as comparatively more attractive, it does not necessarily mean that they would have sex with them."


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201310/why-do-women-fall-bad-boys

God you're a ******* annoying fly go pray to Jesus or something.

And you're the quintessential crybaby. You are only 6 inches away from becoming Romeo yourself. I cannot believe you referred to people here as Armchair Feminists. Step back and take about 10 minutes to reflect on the cluelessness of that statement. You can be an armchair warrior (meaning never having served or engaged in armed conflict) but how in the hell do you come up with armchair feminists????? That implys never having been a women or working in a career field. In other words, somebody just like you.

What's your real beef, is it you think women don't find you attractive??? And you're jealous of the attention criminals get???? Well that's the definition of shallow, vapid, and vain. Buttermilk, you are an overgrown crybaby. Living in the land of lotus eaters is where you belong. I would recommend moving away from the shallow people who surround you and your wonderfulness. However, perhaps therapy will help you get grounded so you won't continually find yourself in a state of resentment, stewing about the nonsense that you point out here.

Firefly has been incredibly patient with you, providing exhaustive details that might help you understand just a tad. Basically, she has provided a crash course in 'grown up' for you, you would be wise to reread her posts but without that chip on your shoulder. I am constantly amazed just how helpful she is, devoting a lot of print on your behalf, and yet you respond only as an adolescent boy who thinks he has it all figured out. You will experience the rudeness of young children sooner than you think. By the time you hit 30, if you have the chutzpah to ask a group of 14 years olds not to sit on your car, brace yourself. The kids might call you Grand dad, because the think that's the ultimate insult (sometimes they drag out other tired expressions) and I am certain you will look at those kids in amazement because they are behaving in such a stupid fashion. It will either strike you funny or make you angry. Either way you will recognize they are not fully formed yet and that's why they still behave like idiots.

Since I doubt you would find the girls who drool over criminals attractive or interesting, let it go. You don't want attention or to spend time with people like that, so why do you think this is a problem for feminists thats so large, a protest or statement has to be issued. It's not, most grown women are trying to instill honorable values in their children or to mentor young men and women in the finer points of becoming successful adults. The morons are on their own, you can put lipstick on a pig but then what do you have? Surely there are things in life that are more worthy of your concern, than criminals groupies?

Do you hang out with many female college professors, scientists, physicians, lawyers, writers, artists, etc.? I do, and with their male counterparts as well. I've heard they can even be found in California. Try surrounding yourself with people who aren't shallow, and whose interests and values go beyond the materialistic or superficial, if you're looking for more interesting companionship.

The current standards of attractiveness haven't changed much, certainly not in the last 500 years--and I'm not quite that old. . Michelangelo's David was considered to represent an attractive male body then, and now.. Your relative youth and limited perspective seems to determine what you think are "the current standards"--and when they originated. The "current standards" are much older than you think.



Wow, all the way back to the "times of James Dean"!!! That really is ancient history, isn't it? Not that your youthful frame of reference is overly limited or truncated. .

Outlaws and dangerous men have always had an appeal--for men as well as women. They become folk icons, we retell their stories, we celebrate them in our literature, even Shakespeare did that--Othello was certainly a dangerous man, so was Iago--we seemingly never tire of books and movies about mafia men, or frontier bad guys, or villains of all types. Trust me, this sort of cultural infatuation with dangerous men goes back much further than James Dean.

Nothing new about that realization. For decades, research in social psychology has demonstrated the positive influence, and benefits, of being attractive. And most people, apparently including even you, do try to make themselves look as attractive as they can. Is there something wrong with that? Don't most people feel better when they think they look good? That doesn't mean that attractiveness is the main value or the only value we judge ourselves or others by.

Then you can certainly understand why women are often upset by that sort of attention from strange men about their bodies.

No, not women as an entire gender, some women do that--and some men do the same when it comes to female convicts. So what?

The 50+ Hottest Women Currently in Prison
http://www.ranker.com/list/hottest-women-in-prison/trent-walker?var=2&utm_expid=16418821-39.UIJi4-rZS625yI_ELKHYvA.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26frm%3D1%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2%26ved%3D0CB0QFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ranker.com%252Flist%252Fhottest-women-in-prison%252Ftrent-walker%26ei%3DSwm8U9zJNcKfyAT074DYCQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNHzmLVwImHheIbVWOFbxNiUBPBA1g%26sig2%3D1B7bS3uujAhA60ycceQ_Lw

Jailhouse-Babes.com
http://www.cowtowninfo.com/personals/jailbabes-main.html

Women Behind Bars
http://womenbehindbars.com/wpblog/


It is hard for someone of my generation to understand how a person, like you, could have gotten to their 30's without realizing that some people--of both genders--can be shallow. You seem to regard this whole issue as some sort of great revelation you've just hit upon. I'd wager that, as long as human beings have been around, some of them have likely been "shallow".
And these days, I'm sure that includes many who post on Facebook, as well as those, like you, who spend their time reading those posts.

I do hope that, by the time you get to my age, you'll stop making over-generalized stereotypical statements about entire groups of people--particularly entire gender groups--actually, I hope you get there much sooner than that.