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Hanging Out the Troops

 
 
Fedral
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 02:35 pm
Hanging Out the Troops
By David H. Hackworth

As an American citizen, I'm ashamed of the atrocities committed by Americans in Iraq. As a former professional soldier, I'm appalled not only by what has happened in the prisons there, but also by our military leadership. From the very top of the Pentagon down to the 320th Military Police Battalion, the brass have spent months covering up obscene behavior while placing the sole blame on Joe and Jill Grunt.

The damage to our country and our just war on terrorism is already devastating. And these war crimes not only diminish the sacrifices of our gallant soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, they place the troops at even greater risk. But I'm certain that these abhorrent acts wouldn't have occurred had the right kind of leadership been exercised by the chain of command.

In 1951 in Korea, I was told by my commanding officer to kill four POWs and refused his direct order. I well remembered the Nazi generals' sorry rationale for their despicable conduct: "We were just following orders." I would get booted out of the Army before I went that route.

In 1965 in Vietnam, I saw a very connected intelligence captain torturing a POW with a field-telephone wire attached to his testicles and decided my personal belief system outweighed his father's four stars. When I told him I'd shoot him if he didn't cease and desist, the atrocity came to a screeching halt.

On both occasions, I knew I had the moral right. I'd been taught from the first day I put on a U.S. Army uniform that American soldiers don't follow unlawful orders and that it was my duty to stop or report an illegal act. I also believed strongly that when dealing with POWs, "There but for the grace of God go I."

The vast majority of our regular soldiers today are likewise well-trained, well-disciplined and have similar values. And they've conducted themselves during the occupation of Iraq in a manner that aptly reflects what America is all about.

But, unfortunately, this is not always the case with many Army Reserve and National Guard units that have been deployed overseas since 9/11. In fact, I've worn out several drums beating the readiness issue during face-to-face meetings with the top brass. As far back as 1989, I warned Secretary of the Army Mike Stone about the generally sad shape of our Reserve and Guard components. But while he listened up, little was done to correct the systemic problems.

And now, because Mr. Rumsfeld and too many of his generals are into a fast-fix mode, the Pentagon has been dispatching Reserve and Guard units to combat zones even when they aren't good to go. For example, I know of two enhanced infantry brigades that were rated as not combat-ready by Training Center commanders but were still sent to Iraq because boots were needed on the ground.

Retired Master Sgt. William Lawson, who brought the atrocity story to SFTT.org, says the 800th Military Police Brigade is a prime example: "My nephew Chip, who's been charged with war crimes, wasn't trained to be a prison guard. He was a part-time soldier marginally trained for even conventional military police (MP) work. But Chip was such a good soldier that he was selected to escort Gen. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Staff, when Chip was guarding the vice president right after 9/11. Myers gave him both great reviews and his personal coin."

"The bedrock truth about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison is that they were so easily preventable," adds SFTT (Soldiers for the Truth) Vice President Roger Charles, who researched this story for CBS News. "But that prevention required a recognition that the top people in the 800th were ill-prepared, incompetent and uncaring. The evidence clearly shows that the Department of the Army mafia was more concerned about protecting the image of the brigade commanding general, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, than holding her and her officers accountable for the terrible situation, which they allowed to fester for months."

Speaking of Karpinski, she's received only a mild slap on the wrist as the brass were circling the wagons. Not a good sign that our country's commanders intend to own up to their respective roles in this catastrophic breach of human rights, which will have consequences we all will have to pay for many years to come.

Col. David H. Hackworth (USA Ret.) is SFTT.org co-founder and Senior Military Columnist for DefenseWatch magazine.

Link to Hack's site: Here

While I haven't always agreed with some of Col. Hackworth's articles, the point he makes here about soldiers needing to take a stand against things like this are very important.

His site is full of some very interesting articles... Col. Hackworth doesn't seem to care much about partisan politics, only what is best for the country and the troops as a whole... in Vietnam, when he took over his unit, the troops at first wanted to kill him... by the time he left, they were saddened because they realized they would never get a commander like him again.

Well worth checking out.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 03:02 pm
Col. Hackworth does write a lot of interesting stuff, but I don't think he is entirely nonpartisan. He is a darling on Larry King Live, for instance, and a frequent talking head for the 'against the war' viewpoint on other news shows. He almost always gives a point of view against the war in Iraq and against the current administration. I haven't found anything he's written in the last two or three years that says we've done anything right at all.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 04:17 pm
Re: Hanging Out the Troops
Fedral,

Fedral wrote:
Hanging Out the Troops
By David H. Hackworth


In 1951 in Korea, I was told by my commanding officer to kill four POWs and refused his direct order. I well remembered the Nazi generals' sorry rationale for their despicable conduct: "We were just following orders." I would get booted out of the Army before I went that route.

In 1965 in Vietnam, I saw a very connected intelligence captain torturing a POW with a field-telephone wire attached to his testicles and decided my personal belief system outweighed his father's four stars. When I told him I'd shoot him if he didn't cease and desist, the atrocity came to a screeching halt.

On both occasions, I knew I had the moral right. I'd been taught from the first day I put on a U.S. Army uniform that American soldiers don't follow unlawful orders and that it was my duty to stop or report an illegal act. I also believed strongly that when dealing with POWs, "There but for the grace of God go I."



Thank you for starting this thread. Col Hackworth, quoted in the three paragraphs above states what I have been trying to say all along. American soldiers are trained to know what is proper treatment od POW's.
We do not torture, rape and murder. When a soldier does those kinds of things he/she is not a soldier but, a thug.

Sam
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 04:21 pm
Re: Hanging Out the Troops
Sam1951 wrote:
Thank you for starting this thread. Col Hackworth, quoted in the three paragraphs above states what I have been trying to say all along. American soldiers are trained to know what is proper treatment od POW's.
We do not torture, rape and murder. When a soldier does those kinds of things he/she is not a soldier but, a thug.

Sam


Which seems to be what the US Government is saying as well.
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 05:04 pm
Fedral,


Thanks for this thread. I never knew Col. Hackworth personally, but knew several people that did. They all spoke highly of him. They'd follow him into hell and back ...and did. Even one of my Battalion Commanders knew him and spoke highly of him. So, knowing what I do of the man, I have to respect his opinion much more than those that do nothing, but watch war on TV, read about it or watch war movies.

It's funny. Historians can read about weaponry, tactics and logistics, just like some new graduate of OCS. So, they know warfare. Without the actuality of hiding from the enemy's gunfire, tasting the metallic taste of the fear of death after seeing the person next to you have his head half blown away by schrappnnel, wondering if that little rise in the ground under your foot is a landmine, wondering if you'll run out of ammunition before the enemy gets you, wondering if you'll even awaken from a night's sleep and wondering how you'll word that letter to your friend's family to notify them of his death, they'll never really know war. They'll only know warfare and about war second-hand.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 05:09 pm
Boring! Does anyone not realize this is boring? You know what's not boring? Invisibility. Let's all go check if there are any new threads about that.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 05:42 pm
I don't know much about Hackworth but I do know that the military and ex-military types on Free Republic detest him. This article was posted over there and they basically ripped him a new one. Here's an example:

Quote:
In April 2001,when our Navy recon plane was forced down by the Chinese,the crew believed they were going to crash and die. The flight deck crew wrestled to control the plane, before it crashed. One can only imagine the chaos inside the plane,as it spiraled downward. Most everyone thought Lt Osborne and his crew, were heroes-except Hack.

April 2001

PSST, WANNA BUY SOME YANKEE SPY SECRETS?

BY DAVID H. HACKWORTH

"Last week, communist China got the Olympic gold. But a few months back, it hit a mother lode of our country's top military secrets -- courtesy of U.S. Navy Lt. Shane Osborne and his recon plane flight crew..."

"Word is that Osborne and the rest of the flight-deck crew were so busy keeping their damaged plane in the sky, they plumb forgot to update the intelligence whiz kids in the back about the change in landing plans."

Hack is pissed that the crew ,while in an out of control dive over the South China Sea, did not destroy all their equipment.

"Congress needs to investigate what happened and also get an answer to the question that many vets are asking: Why didn't the aircraft ditch? "..

"Sometimes the few must sacrifice for the many. That's why a 37-year old can retire with a pension for life. Serving your country is a dangerous duty -- or at least it used to be."

Sickening.
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 12:13 am
Tarantulas wrote:
I don't know much about Hackworth but I do know that the military and ex-military types on Free Republic detest him.


Opinions are like , ah, ah, noses. That's it, noses.

"Congress needs to investigate what happened and also get an answer to the question that many vets are asking: Why didn't the aircraft ditch? "

I agree. It's standard operating procedure (SOP) to ditch or destroy and sensitive information or items that may fall into hostile hands. These whiz kids knew the drill and blew it. Plain and simple. They're trained in it and are supposed to do it almost instinctively. Somehow, someone didn't.

By the way, "cute" avatar.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 01:00 am
Fedral

That piece is just about exactly the way I view this story too. It doesn't matter where I travel in Canada or the US, people are friendly and kind-hearted and the exceptions are really very rare. But were I placed in the situations these soldiers were in, I truly don't know how much more ethical I might have been. I hope it, but I don't know. That doesn't excuse them (and it wouldn't excuse me) because we can't allow such acts and remain civilized.

What I do know is that the people who put them there, and didn't see to it that they were appropriately trained and supervised, bear perhaps as much responsibility as the soldiers.

Thank you kindly for posting this piece.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 01:11 am
Tarantulas wrote:
I don't know much about Hackworth but I do know that the military and ex-military types on Free Republic detest him. This article was posted over there and they basically ripped him a new one. Here's an example:

Quote:
In April 2001,when our Navy recon plane was forced down by the Chinese,the crew believed they were going to crash and die. The flight deck crew wrestled to control the plane, before it crashed. One can only imagine the chaos inside the plane,as it spiraled downward. Most everyone thought Lt Osborne and his crew, were heroes-except Hack.

April 2001

PSST, WANNA BUY SOME YANKEE SPY SECRETS?

BY DAVID H. HACKWORTH

"Last week, communist China got the Olympic gold. But a few months back, it hit a mother lode of our country's top military secrets -- courtesy of U.S. Navy Lt. Shane Osborne and his recon plane flight crew..."

"Word is that Osborne and the rest of the flight-deck crew were so busy keeping their damaged plane in the sky, they plumb forgot to update the intelligence whiz kids in the back about the change in landing plans."

Hack is pissed that the crew ,while in an out of control dive over the South China Sea, did not destroy all their equipment.

"Congress needs to investigate what happened and also get an answer to the question that many vets are asking: Why didn't the aircraft ditch? "..

"Sometimes the few must sacrifice for the many. That's why a 37-year old can retire with a pension for life. Serving your country is a dangerous duty -- or at least it used to be."

Sickening.


Taran, you know I am as big a supporter of the Right as can be, but in reference to this article...

My self and a number of my friends that are or were military felt the same way about Lt. Osborne and his crew. They had a DUTY to see that his plane and its equipment didn't fall into enemy hands.

When I was on the crew of a Pershing II missile (a tactical battlefield nuclear weapon), we had specific orders that if our missile was in danger of being captured, our PRIMARY duty was to ensure the destruction of that missile AT ALL COSTS.

When you are in control of classified equipment, you are obligated to ensure the destruction of any devices that are at risk of capture.

If the Lieutenant had made a crash landing in the ocean, the salt water would have ensured that almost NO devices would have been salvageable or serviceable ... instead, this Navy pilot chose to protect his own ass and hand over a huge intelligence windfall to the Chinese.

Not my idea of a hero.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 01:35 am
Fedral wrote:
If the Lieutenant had made a crash landing in the ocean, the salt water would have ensured that almost NO devices would have been salvageable or serviceable ... instead, this Navy pilot chose to protect his own ass and hand over a huge intelligence windfall to the Chinese.

Not my idea of a hero.

This is the first I've heard of anyone saying the pilot was at fault for bringing the plane in for a safe landing. I thought the crew would have had methods to destroy whatever classified information was on board without having to dunk the whole plain into the ocean. I know when the North Koreans captured the USS Pueblo, there were several sailors on board who were injured setting off explosives to destroy their equipment.

My submarine had "scuttle valves" at the bottome of every compartment. We knew where they were but were not trained in how to use them, and I have no idea when they would ever have been used. So I don't really have a reference point to work with here.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 09:21 pm
Taran,

I do not know Navy procedures, but as the scion of four generations of Army soldiers, I know that the most important word when you take the oath is DUTY.

You have a DUTY to your Country, the Constitution, your officers and your fellow soldiers.

In this case, one of Lt. Osbornes primary duties was to ensure that the classified equipment wasn't captured by a foreign power.

A normal pilot's first duty is to his passengers. But for an intelligence aircraft like this, the duty to avoid compromising security takes precedence over the lives and safety of the crew and passengers. You know this going into jobs like this and this Lieutenant should have remembered where his first duty was.

It may seem stupid to those who never served, but people involved in these types of fields are well informed that their lives are secondary to security. (Thats why the military pays them the BIG BUCKS Rolling Eyes Laughing )
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 02:15 pm
Perhaps the problem with Iraq could be resolved by returning to the old Cavalry SOP or Barbarian Method. Kill all the men, Rape and kill all but one of the women, pillage at will and burn the village. The lone survivor will tell everyone about the whole thing and they will be too scared to resist. End of conflict. Right? Rolling Eyes
Just ask AIM

Sam
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 04:26 pm
Yeah and maybe we could come up with a nifty name for the killer teams, one that would strike fear into the hearts of the enemy. I've got it! How about - Mujahadeen!
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 05:35 pm
Mujahadeen? Naw, I think that one's in use. How about the Keystone Cops? Hmmmmmm? Now there's a name. It'll get as much respect as GW Bush!!!
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 05:45 pm
Wonderful post Fedral.
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:16 pm
Fedral,

Is that why I got $12 monthly for combat pay in Vietnam? Surprised Wow and here I thought it was for my good looks. Sad
0 Replies
 
IAN442
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:22 pm
Photos don't lie...unless youre really good with photoshop... Shocked

im a vet. now i served in the air force, which i think is a joke to other servicemen...because of how we are treated.

I was a U-2 Spyplane mechanic but our mission was recon of all sorts. Military and Non-Military.

But i just can't believe the current administration...many of my fellow airmen spent countless rotations to the sandbox to babysit saddam. I did as well...

I even carried on for 5 months with a slipped disc in my back making sure that our planes were flying daily gathering data for the UN and the White house.

But even I with my basic Geneva Convention experience knew what those soldiers were doing was WRONG...

The government doesn't want robots. They want thinkers, and if you get punished becuase you went against the rules for the right reason, that is the price one must pay. The Nazi idea doesn't cut it.

(stepping off my soapbox)
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:32 pm
IAN442,

Thank you for serving and for knowing.
I'm just tired of the buck passing. What ever happened to leaders who lead and take responsibility. Zen hugs to you and yours, I'm glad you came home.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:58 pm
IAN442,

Welcome to A2Kand back to the "World." You can get on your soapbox any time you want. It may be hard to believe, but even I do it sometimes.
0 Replies
 
 

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