revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 12:17 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Do you have sources for those numbers? I really wouldn't be surprised if there was more conservative groups targeted, probably more conservative groups. When the inspector general first looked into this, he only looked at it from a conservative point because they were the ones complaining of being targeted. However, words such as "progressive" was used as part of the screening process as well as "tea party."

IRS targeting included liberal groups

Quote:
Daniel Werfel, the IRS acting commissioner, provided no details of what inappropriate criteria were on the lists, but said "there was a wide-ranging set of categories and cases that spanned a broad spectrum."


Wasn't the guy formerly in charge of the IRS while all that screening words stuff was going on a Bush appointee, Steven T. Miller?

As far as the lost emails, I don't know.



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 12:46 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Do you have sources for those numbers? I really wouldn't be surprised if there was more conservative groups targeted, probably more conservative groups. When the inspector general first looked into this, he only looked at it from a conservative point because they were the ones complaining of being targeted. However, words such as "progressive" was used as part of the screening process as well as "tea party."

IRS targeting included liberal groups

Quote:
Daniel Werfel, the IRS acting commissioner, provided no details of what inappropriate criteria were on the lists, but said "there was a wide-ranging set of categories and cases that spanned a broad spectrum."


Wasn't the guy formerly in charge of the IRS while all that screening words stuff was going on a Bush appointee, Steven T. Miller?

As far as the lost emails, I don't know.






The scandal, Revelette, despite what Finn thinks...is totally phony.

But I doubt anyone can get these good people to see that.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 12:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Other than "believing" all conservatives (or just Republicans, I can't keep up with your rants) are scum that will destroy civilization.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 01:51 pm
@revelette2,
Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

Source 4

Source 5

Source 6l

The precise numbers vary but that the focus was overwhelmingly on conservative groups does not.

Keep in mind that there is a very big difference between developing a list based on a search for key words (like "progressive" or "tea party") and selecting the "hits" to actually hit, to investigate, to stall, to reject.

Can you name one progressive group that suffered the onslaught of government agencies that this woman, her family and her business did?
Also keep in mind that applying for tax exempt status and being rejected is not a indication of criminality.

article

video

Quote:
"My life before I spoke out for good government stands in stark contrast to the life I now lead. As a wife, a mother, and small businesswoman working with my husband, raising our children and participating in my church and PTA, the government collected my taxes and left me and my family in peace. But when I helped found and led True the Vote and King Street Patriots, I found myself a target of this federal government," she said. "Shortly after filing IRS forms to establish 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) tax exempt organizations, an assortment of federal entities including law enforcement agencies and a Congressman from Maryland, Elijah Cummings came knocking at my door. In nearly two decades of running our small business, my husband and I never dealt with any government agency, outside of filing our annual tax returns. We had never been audited, we had never been investigated, but all that changed upon submitting applications for the non profit statuses of True the Vote and King Street Patriots. Since that filing in 2010, my private businesses, my nonprofit organizations, and family have been subjected to more than 15 instances of audit or inquiry by federal agencies."
Engelbrecht was audited by the IRS, ATF and received multiple visits by OSHA and ATF.


What is very telling is that if you google "Catherine Engelbrecht" you will find only two articles by the "Mainstream Media" (ABC News and NY Times) and both focus on Engelbrecht's True the Vote group with unsubstantiated insinuation that it's efforts are intended to suppress voting among minorities. The ABC piece actually carries the question in it's headline. Neither article does more than touch on the "attention" Engelbrecht and her company received after she applied for tax exempt status from the IRS.

The woman testified before congress and gave a shocking and factual account of being "visited" and audited by federal agencies and the office of one congressman 15 times after filing her applications; without ever being previously "noticed" by the feds; not even a tax audit. If this isn't newsworthy to all news outlets, I don't know what is. If new outlets want to to do follow-up coverage on what these organization do, that's fine, but not covering her testimony in the first instance? Chalking it up to coincidence is what we expect from partisan politicians, not journalists.

The NY Times suggests that True the Vote findings of voter fraud are questionable.That warrants an audit by the ATF?!

It astounds me that liberals are so willing to ignore what is right in front of them in order to maintain a political narrative. Obama Administration Good; Tea Party Evil. All we would have to do is switch the party holding the White House and the mission of the targeted group from exposing voter fraud to exposing voter suppression and liberals would be screaming bloody murder, and rightly so!

There shouldn't be anything partisan about the issue of an administration using governmental agencies (and particularly the IRS with all of it's massive power) to stymie or punish opponents, but right from the start, the left's reaction wasn't even cautious concern, it was dubious disregard. If you think that this sort of thing left unchecked doesn't set a precedent for future administrations (who just might be Republican) and a blueprint for how to get away with it, you're fooling yourself.

As for the e-mail, I don't know either. That's the whole point. Without further investigation we won't know and if the e-mail is irretrievable we will never know if it contained a smoking gun. Is it so difficult to imagine that an Administration would go this far to make sure you never know?

You don't know, but what do you think? Don't you want to know more?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 01:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, you keep your head in the sand. You certainly can't convince me the scandal is phony. The only argument anyone has made for it being phony is that progressive groups were "targeted" as well as conservative groups, and that is merely a distortion of the facts.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 02:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Other than "believing" all conservatives (or just Republicans, I can't keep up with your rants) are scum that will destroy civilization.


I do NOT think anything of the sort, Finn.

Almost ALL of my immediate friends and relatives are Republicans and conservatives. I love them all...and would go to bat for them in a second...just as I would you.

But I despise American conservatism just the same. I think they (and you) are being hoodwinked BIG TIME.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2014 02:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Frank, you keep your head in the sand. You certainly can't convince me the scandal is phony. The only argument anyone has made for it being phony is that progressive groups were "targeted" as well as conservative groups, and that is merely a distortion of the facts.


My head is not in the sand, Finn...and I doubt I will ever convince you of any of the things I think about American conservatism.

So...we are in agreement on that.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:10 am
The very fact liberal groups were targeted, even if less than conservatives, kind of just negates the whole "targeting conservative groups" out of the water. Perhaps there was simply a rise in conservative groups which accounts for their being more conservative targeted. Perhaps those conservative groups were simply trying to get around having to pay taxes and were then doing what they do best which is loudly complaining of being persecuted. As far as the lost emails, I admit that is curious, I will wait until I learn further facts on it though. However, I don't believe there was anything nefarious with the administration trying to bully conservative groups through the IRS, it is just a ludicrous made up conspiracy. Go ahead and call me a obamabot or shill or got my head in the sand or whatever. I really do not care.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 06:56 pm
@revelette2,
You and frank just refuse to face facts, and ask pertinent questions.

Aside from the possibility that progressive groups were flagged to provide some meager cover for the endeavor, these groups were only identified on a list that that was produced by searching for key words and phrases.

The groups did not then receive the scrutiny and harassment that the conservative groups did.




Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 02:40 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You and frank just refuse to face facts, and ask pertinent questions.

Aside from the possibility that progressive groups were flagged to provide some meager cover for the endeavor, these groups were only identified on a list that that was produced by searching for key words and phrases.

The groups did not then receive the scrutiny and harassment that the conservative groups did.


Actually, perhaps we just see the unreasoned...and relentless hatred for Barack Obama coming from your side...and suspect that most of your outrage is just an extension of that nonsense.

The reports I have read show that both sides were targeted (as they should have been)...and that organizations that really should not be tax exempt were being sought.

But your relenetless pursuit of Obama for any excuse does not allow you to see that side.

Try waking up, Finn...and then talk about what others are doing.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:09 am
And then, of course, there's the missing 18 1/2 minutes of tape. I mean e-mail.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 09:18 pm
@Brandon9000,
Are you old enough to remember Nixon?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 07:16 am
Surprise surprise

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 07:34 am
Quote:
IRS told congressional investigators on Friday that the emails of Lerner, the former head of the tax exempt division that was found to have singled out conservative groups for additional scrutiny, were lost from 2009 to 2011 in a computer hard drive crash in early summer 2011. IRS chief John Koskinen will face angry Republicans at a hearing on Friday.

The time frame is significant because the tea party targeting began in spring of 2010, and Republicans think if there was a smoking gun connecting the Obama administration to the IRS treatment of conservative groups, it could be found during that period.

“We believe the standard IRS protocol was followed in 2011 for disposing of the broken hard drive. A bad hard drive, like other broken Information Technology equipment, is sent to a recycler as part of our regular process,” an IRS spokesman said in response to a query from POLITICO.

On Wednesday, the White House retorted that for the time frame in which Lerner’s emails are missing, there are no direct communications between 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. and the now-retired Lerner.

Earlier this week, Ways and Means Republicans said as many as six IRS employees involved in the scandal also lost email in computer crashes, including the former chief of staff for the acting IRS commissioner.

That’s because before May 2013, the IRS backed up emails only for six months on a tape, then recycled the tapes, so they essentially threw out the data. Many agencies do the same, transparency experts say.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:07 am
@revelette2,
And if the "loss" of the e-mail was intentional, this is exactly the sort of "retort" one would expect from the White House.

At the very least, Americans should be suspicious, and a great many are.

Huffington Post

If a majority of Americans didn't believe Obama could be trusted back in January, I doubt he has convinced anyone otherwise during the time since.

Obviously Democrats in congress and who appear on TV as Democrat "Strategists" (which regardless of policy affiliation actually means "apologist.) will not find this loss of e-mails to be in the least bit troubling, and they will swallow whole the White House's assurance that Lois Lerner never communicated with anyone in the White House. I would expect the public to be less trusting.

There have been numerous examples of Administrations lying to the American people and covering up practices and behaviors they didn't want known. We have a couple of active threads right now in which the topic of whether or not Bush lied about Iraq is being debated. Interestingly enough a number of the folks who are absolutely convinced he lied, think there is nothing even fishy going on here.

The incidents of White House lying and cover-up haven't been limited to one party or the other, and, clearly, there is no reason to invest a lot of faith in this White House's veracity, and yet we see a stunning lack of interest or concern among quite a few people.

Skepticism concerning what our government is doing and telling us is not only essential, it's justified. If you believe the politicians in the party with which you generally disagree lie and cover-up, why would you believe the politicians in the party with which you agree would not? Is it some sense that if someone seems to agree with you on a number of important issues, they couldn't possibly be mendacious?

You don't have to assume there is a cover-up going on here, but you should be able to recognize when something doesn't smell right, a pattern of convenient coincidences, and want, if not insist, on getting to the bottom of it. Republicans do this as much as Democrats so this isn't a partisan thing. Right now the government is run by Democrats and they are the ones who should be viewed with skepticism, especially when they have already been caught in lies and when there are solid indications that it may be happening again. Any investigation of any DC matter is going to involve politics. They always do; even when a Special Prosecutor is involved. I don't think it matters much though if investigators are motivated more by politics than discovering the truth, if they discover the truth. Do some people prefer not to have the truth revealed if it will allow the other party to score political points?

If the allegations around this matter are accurate, this is a very big deal. Using the IRS for political purposes was the substance of one of the articles of impeachment drawn up against Nixon. It may not have resulted in anyone's death, but it’s not trivial as a result, and governments that make a practice of abusing their power are not bound by voting records in the selection of their targets. If a government official(s) can justify the illegal abuse of power being used against obvious political opponents, there is no reason to believe they won't justify its use against people who don't see them as their opponents. And this White House will only be around for another couple of years. The next president could well be a Republican. If any Administration is able to get away with abuse of power, it will encourage others to do so as well.

The failure of our press to subject this Administration to the same scrutiny they have focused on past Administrations is probably the worst scandal of all. The similarities between this matter and Watergate are numerous, but there is one enormous difference, with rare exception, the press refuses to attend to it.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:32 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
So you are alleging that the IRS deliberately caused a crash so the emails would be lost and the administration is lying about it. These are pretty serious accusations and I think there should be more to back up these accusation than I have seen thus far.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:52 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
revelette2 quoting Finn dAbuzz' politico article wrote:
Earlier this week, Ways and Means Republicans said as many as six IRS employees involved in the scandal also lost email in computer crashes, including the former chief of staff for the acting IRS commissioner.

I wonder if other IRS employees who are not involved in the scandal also lost email in computer crashes during that time frame.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 10:56 am
@InfraBlue,
That would be pretty interesting to know.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:12 pm
@revelette2,
I am not alleging anything as yet. I am saying that the explanation for the IRS not complying with the request by Congress for a significant segment of Lois Lerner's e-mail raises serious questions which give rise to suspicion, and which need to be fully investigated.

If the Administration is involved in a cover-up of illegal or highly inappropriate conduct, and Lerner's e-mail contained evidence of such conduct, we can assume that the cover-up would include preventing Congress from seeing the evidence. Exactly how the Administration may have attempted this remains to be determined. The IRS would not necessarily have had to cause Lerner's computer to crash. Not only are the e-mail said to be gone, so is the hard-drive. An IRS source says that the hard drive has been destroyed which would prevent the recovery of the ""lost" e-mail.

I have no doubt that the hard-drive was, in fact destroyed. The questions I have are why was it destroyed, when and by whom.

There is a possibility the facts are exactly as the IRS has reported: Lerner's computer crashed in 2011, an effort to retrieve the data failed, and internal protocol requiring the hard-drive to be completely destroyed through "magnetic degaussing" was followed.

There is also the possibility that upon discovering what was on Lerner's hard-drive, a decision was made to destroy it rather than allowing congress to see its contents, and then spinning a lie about her computer crashing in 2011 and it needing to be destroyed.

It would be a bold and desperate scheme, but if the hard-drive contained evidence of serious wrong doing, it is not in the least bit unimaginable that it might be attempted. We all know government officials, including presidents get involved in cover-up efforts. They must work quite a lot of the time or they wouldn't be so frequent.

Somehow 18 minutes of the Nixon White House tapes were erased. There is no proof that it was done to destroy evidence, but that was absolutely the widely held belief at the time. If it was a deliberate effort to eliminate incriminating evidence whomever ordered it had to know what it would look like if and when the gap was discovered, but they were desperate enough to do it anyway.

Other than my basis belief that the Administration was abusing its power by using the IRS to punish its enemies, there are several facts concerning this matter that should cause suspicion in a reasonable person.

Lois Lerner pled the 5th in response to questions from congress. Yes, this is her constitutional right and it is not proof of guilt but experience tells us that it is very rare for the innocent to plead the 5th in court or before congress, and can't be viewed in isolation.

The request for Lerner's e-mail was made months before the IRS reported to congress that they had been lost. This could have simply been a matter of bureaucratic delay, but at the time the request was made it would have been a known fact that Lerner's hard-drive had crashed and was discarded. If this is so, why did it take months to so advise congress?

The IRS claim that it's criminal investigation division attempted to retrieve the data from Lerner's hard-drive after it crashed and failed. Numerous data retrieval experts have opined that given the hard-drive, retrieval of most if not all of the data was entirely possible. How could the criminal investigation division of the IRS, that must be aware of all current techniques and possess all the latest technology have failed? They must retrieve data from thousands of "crashed" hard-drives every year.

While the possibility does exist that each of these have a reasonable answer that would not indicate foul-play, it is not reasonable, given the charges that have been made concerning the scandal and the evidence already available, to simply accept the IRS explanation without conducting a thorough investigation. In order for such an investigation to have any chance of getting to the bottom of this, a Special Prosecutor needs to be appointed. The DOJ has already clearly shown it has no interest or intent in a vigorous investigation.

The press should be focusing their investigative resources on this story, but thus far not only have they failed to, they are assisting the Administration by dismissing it as a phony scandal and writing stories that attack the people who say they were harassed rather than investigating their claims.

My point continues to be that one doesn't have to be a partisan crack-pot to find all of what has been going on is suspicious and deserving of a thorough investigation, one only has to be rational. Indeed, to the contrary, waving a hand in front of this and dismissing it as a phony scandal requires a great deal of partisan influence on one's thinking. The degree of disregard for this matter by citizens who either admire Obama, or hate Darryl Issa and the Republicans (or both) just would not be there if a Republican administration was at the center of the scandal.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:17 pm
@InfraBlue,
This would lend credence to the IRS explanation, but in and of itself would not wipe away the cause for suspicion.

It would still be necessary to determine if there was evidence that Lerner's computer crashed at the same time. It wouldn't take a criminal genius to identify a period when there were incidents of computer problems and then attach a story about Lerner's computer to that time period.

This is why a professional and thorough investigation is required. It is too easy to jump on facts we think support our beliefs and take them at face value.
0 Replies
 
 

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