4
   

Should " the better to hide it from others" be " the better than to hide it from others"?

 
 
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 08:06 am

Context:

In his book Social Evolution, Robert Trivers enlarged on his
1976 evolutionary theory of self-deception. Self-deception is
hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others. In our own species we recognize that shifty eyes, sweaty palms and croaky voices may indicate the stress that accompanies conscious knowledge of attempted deception. By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer. He or she can lie without the nervousness that
accompanies deception.
 
View best answer, chosen by oristarA
InfraBlue
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 09:27 am
@oristarA,
No. It means self-deception is used to better hide the truth from others. Your suggestion would mean that self-deception is used for reason better than hiding it from others.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 09:50 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

No. It means self-deception is used to better hide the truth from others. Your suggestion would mean that self-deception is used for reason better than hiding it from others.


Thanks.
What does "others" mean here?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 10:06 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:


Context:

In his book Social Evolution, Robert Trivers enlarged on his
1976 evolutionary theory of self-deception. Self-deception is
hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others. In our own species we recognize that shifty eyes, sweaty palms and croaky voices may indicate the stress that accompanies conscious knowledge of attempted deception. By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer. He or she can lie without the nervousness that
accompanies deception.


Plus, what does "its" mean? Whose?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 10:52 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

What does "others" mean here?


Other people (people other than the self-deceiver).

contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 10:54 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.


Plus, what does "its" mean? Whose?
[/quote]

The deciever's.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 08:25 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:

What does "others" mean here?


Other people (people other than the self-deceiver).




So " the conscious mind" refers to "the conscious mind of the self-deceiver's own"?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 08:28 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.


Plus, what does "its" mean? Whose?


The deciever's.

[/quote]

So the author has perticularly reduced the man (who deceives himself) to "it"?
I hear when you call a baby "it", you'd better not let the baby's parents hear you, otherwise you'd be stormed at.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 10:24 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:

What does "others" mean here?


Other people (people other than the self-deceiver).




So " the conscious mind" refers to "the conscious mind of the self-deceiver's own"?

Yes, the conscious mind of the self-deceiver.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2014 10:32 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
oristarA wrote:

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.


Plus, what does "its" mean? Whose?


The deciever's.



So the author has perticularly reduced the man (who deceives himself) to "it"?
I hear when you call a baby "it", you'd better not let the baby's parents hear you, otherwise you'd be stormed at.


"It's" refers to the deceiver's deception (notice the possessive apostrophe "s" in contrex's reply), not the deceiver himself.
McTag
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2014 12:38 am
@oristarA,

Quote:
Should " the better to hide it from others" be " the better than to hide it from others"?


You've not understood the phrase "all the better to...."

Go back to the tale of Red Riding Hood, which we had recently

(big eyes) "All the better to see you with."
(big ears) "All the better to hear you with"
(big teeth) "All the better to eat you with"
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2014 12:39 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

oristarA wrote:
oristarA wrote:

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.


Plus, what does "its" mean? Whose?


The deciever's.



So the author has perticularly reduced the man (who deceives himself) to "it"?
I hear when you call a baby "it", you'd better not let the baby's parents hear you, otherwise you'd be stormed at.


"It's" refers to the deceiver's deception (notice the possessive apostrophe "s" in contrex's reply), not the deceiver himself.


If its deception = the deceiver's deception, it = deceiver. No ambiguity here.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2014 12:58 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
If its deception = the deceiver's deception, it = deceiver. No ambiguity here.


Wrong, sorry.
And please see my post above, in case you missed it.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 12:25 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Should " the better to hide it from others" be " the better than to hide it from others"?


You've not understood the phrase "all the better to...."

Go back to the tale of Red Riding Hood, which we had recently

(big eyes) "All the better to see you with."
(big ears) "All the better to hear you with"
(big teeth) "All the better to eat you with"


You've posted it one minute before my reply, so I missed it.
Sorry.
But "all the better" seems to have nothing to do with the question "it = deceiver".
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 12:41 am
@oristarA,

I answered the question you asked, about a grammatical point.
Now you raise something different, which is about the meaning of the sentence.

Quote:
Self-deception is
hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others.


What exactly do you want to know?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 01:01 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I answered the question you asked, about a grammatical point.
Now you raise something different, which is about the meaning of the sentence.

Quote:
Self-deception is
hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others.


What exactly do you want to know?


Yes, you've answered "the better" question. Thanks for that.
Now another if you'd like to reply:

Do you agree with what I said below? -
Quote:
If its deception = the deceiver's deception, it = deceiver. No ambiguity here.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 01:02 am
@oristarA,

I answered that already, above.

Quote:
Self-deception is hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others.

And in that sentence, it = truth.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 06:59 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I answered that already, above.

Quote:
Self-deception is hiding the truth from the conscious mind the better to hide it from others.

And in that sentence, it = truth.


No. I meant the "it" in "By becoming unconscious of its deception".
That why I said:

Quote:
If its deception = the deceiver's deception, it = deceiver. No ambiguity here.



McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:17 am
@oristarA,

I see your problem. It is a very awkward and illogocal (and unclear) sentence. I've read it several times, without improving its clarity.
Quote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer

"It" can never refer to a person. It is an impersonal pronoun.
So it's wrong to say it = the deceiver.

It would make better sense if the sentence was written:
By becoming unconscious of THE deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.

I therefore believe the original was in error.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:47 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I see your problem. It is a very awkward and illogocal (and unclear) sentence. I've read it several times, without improving its clarity.
Quote:
By becoming unconscious of its deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer

"It" can never refer to a person. It is an impersonal pronoun.
So it's wrong to say it = the deceiver.

It would make better sense if the sentence was written:
By becoming unconscious of THE deception, the deceiver hides these signs from the observer.

I therefore believe the original was in error.


I like the rewriting. It is crystal clear. Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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