The American Muslim Movement.

Perception-I have read good reviews on the Frum book but have not read it. Why don't you look at his bibliography to see how many times he refers to the work of Bernard Lewis--the acknowledged US authority on Islam?

Your irresponsible attempt to establish a moral equivalence is both offensive and repugnant to me. Now it is not just hatred for Bush but for all of American society.

Well I'm sorry Perc,

but American action in Iraq, which has always been a diversion away from the real fight against terrorism - in fact made terrorism worse - has brought about this moral comparison that you abhor.

Apparently, Steve does not care to read either Frum( mentioned by Perception) or Lewis( Mr reference).

Does he have an authority to which we can refer?
Or does he set himself up as one( ala Mr. Blatham)

If so, may we see your credentials?
If not, I am very much afraid that you are completely refuted by Frum and Lewis.

But some people think they know more than the authorities on the subject. How childish!

Sorry to you also Steve

I just lost what little respect I had for your opinion.

Well just for the record mporter, as you quote me, I didnt say



I said


A simple error on your behalf I know, but I am feeling particularly pedantic tonight.

Orders for the illegal torture and abuse of prisoners came right from the top. Sanchez would not have given the instruction for prisoners to be handed over to military intelligence, and for them to use whatever methods they found useful, had Rumsfeld not authorised it.

It explains why those charged have protested they were obeying orders...I don't actually think ordinary American soldiers would behave in such a way had they not been instructed to do so...and it also explains why the abuse was widespread, systematic and went on for a long time before the pictures that were leaked caused outrage.

Haven't got time to read the Bernard Lewis article right now but will give you my comments once I've done so.

Thank you, Steve, and I apoligize for the misprint.

You are indeed correct.

I urge you to read Lewis since he encapsulates the essence of the reasons why we fight.

On another thread , Ican711 has portrayed our fight in Iraq as World War III.

If Bernard Lewis is correct, it is indeed world war III, because( here I give a part of this article.

quote:

"In the classical Islamist view, to which many Muslims are beginning to return, the world and all mankind are divided into two: The House of Islam where the Muslim Law and faith prevail, and the rest, known as the House of Unbelief...WHICH IT IS THE DUTY OF MOSLEMS ULTIMATELY TO BRING TO ISLAM...Ultimately, the struggle of the fundamentalist is against two enemies. secularism and modernism. THIS IS NO LESS THAN A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS."

end of quote--
Mr. Steve- What do you think "THE DUTY OF MOSLEMS ULTIMATELY TO BRING TO ISLAM" means?

Does it mean suicide bombing after suicide bombing, insurgent after insurgent, Bali bombing after Bali bombing. Cole bombing after Cole bombing, WTC tragedy after WTC tragedy unless they are stopped?

I think so.

Well again Mr mporter and Mr Perception,

It might surprise you that I too hold radical Islam in contempt. [but then I am rather contemptuous of most cults and religions that claim monopoly on fundamental truth]

And I dont deny there are some very unpleasant people about who wish great harm upon western civilisation.

It is simply my contention that Amercian/British action in Iraq has made the situation worse. That Bush and co knew that it would make the situation worse, and that they went ahead anyway because the prize of securing oil was so important.

And I get annoyed that through what appears to be incompetent leadership American and British action in Iraq has crystallised all the negatives and secured NOT ONE positive benefit.

If by some miracle, a stable democracy is established in Iraq, IMO there are few achievements in my lifetime to compete with it.

From my viewpoint Sofia, the American objective never included a stable democratic Iraq as anything other than a bonus extra.

Whether it was a plan hermetically sealed in a mayonaisse jar...or a slapdash idea we just put together--if we achieve it, it will dramatically change our world for the better.

<But, I think the plan/idea was written before Bush ever took office. I think a conservative think tank forwarded it to Clinton, and later to Bush. >

Steve thinks the situation has been made worse by our intervention in Iraq. I welcome any proof or documentation that show that the situation has been made worse. I don't think that Steve can show that the situation has been made worse since it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict what would have happened if History had not taken a special path.

Would Hitler have invaded the USA if we had not fought the Nazis in World War II?

Could the French Army have defeated the German Army decisively if they had challenged them when they went into the Rhineland in 1936?

Would the Japanese Army have collapsed and the Japanese government have sued for peace in the summer of 1945 even if we had not dropped the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

No one can answer those questions with complete accuracy. And Steve, I submit, cannot know that things in Iraq would have been better if we had not invaded.

Good work, Brits!

Dirty Imam sent to the cooler.

The post I just wrote got evaporated in cyberspace, but I said I was no fan of counterfactual arguments. After that I found this, which supports my contention that the invasion of Iraq has made the international terrorist threat worse

The Fall of the Vulcans
Iraq may Spell the End of an Evangelical Belief in American Military Power

by Timothy Garton Ash

Iraq has turned into a disastrous defeat for America and Britain. All the current debate is essentially about damage limitation. The Bush administration invaded Iraq on what has proved to be a false prospectus. It has made a terrible mess of the occupation. It has created more terrorist threats than were there before.

from

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0527-03.htm

Uh, if America were to flex it's military power, Iraq would be even dustier than it is. That would because dust would be the only left. Instead, we choose to be gentle and careful of civilians. Should I go find an opinion from Free Republic to refute the claims of Mr. Ash?